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This topic contains 271 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  ALB 2 weeks, 2 days ago.

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  • #185283

    Dave Chesham
    Participant

    This post has been removed as it is in breach of Forum guidlines.

    7. You are free to express your views candidly and forcefully provided you remain civil. Do not use the forums to send abuse, threats, personal insults or attacks, or purposely inflammatory remarks (trolling). Do not respond to such messages.

    #185284

    robbo203
    Participant

    What a commotion. A member was not aware that Corbyn had expressed the view that the class struggle as defined by the SPGB was more important to workers than Brexit.
    That is all!
    Can we leave it at that?

    No we can’t.   We ALSO have to discuss what side of the class struggle Corbyn and the Labour Party are going to support.  It is certainly not going to be the side of the workers.   Corbyn does not want to get rid of capitalism  (only to humanise it).   But capitalism can only really be run in the interests of capital and therefore against the interests of labour

    I thought I would just mention that just in case Vin thinks socialists should leave off attacking the ideas of a politician (like Corbyn) who upholds capitalism

    #185326

    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Greta Thunberg explains the priorities of the EU

    Brexit v. Global warming

    “Our house is falling apart and our leaders need to start acting accordingly because at the moment they are not. If our house was falling apart our leaders wouldn’t go on like we do today,” she said. “If our house was falling apart, you wouldn’t hold three emergency Brexit summits and no emergency summit regarding the breakdown of the climate and the environment.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/16/greta-thunberg-urges-eu-leaders-wake-up-climate-change-school-strike-movement

    #185392

    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    https://www.indy100.com/article/george-galloway-nigel-farage-brexit-party-european-elections-twitter-response-8875806

    George Galloway in 2014: “I’ll be campaigning to remain in the EU as anyone with any brain cells will be doing”

     

    Fast forward to 2019 – Galloway backs Farage

    “Given the nature of Labour’s Euro-fanatic candidates list and the crucial juncture we have reached in the fight for the full implementation of the #Brexit referendum result and for one-time only I will be supporting @Nigel_Farage in next months elections. @TheBrexitPartly”

    “A vote for the 5th Column Euro-fanatics in the The EPLP and the PLP would empower the enemy within. The betrayal of #Brexit can be halted in its tracks by a sweeping victory for @TheBrexitPartly I believe that will happen. It may also precipitate the break-up of the Conservatives”

    “The greatest recruiting sergeant for actual fascism in Britain would be to allow the Blair-led FBPE crowd to cheat the 17.4 million out of the #Brexit victory as parliament is trying to do in plain sight. Amazing how many people can’t see that.”

    “This is a tactical judgement. I’m serious about #Brexit I’m even more serious about democracy. The Conservatives and the Blairite 5th Column have rendered both parties redundant in the European Parliament elections, as my critics will shortly see”

    I notice a couple of familiar names in the twitter thread

    #185395

    robbo203
    Participant

    How fitting that George Galloway should join hands with Farage’s little Englander Brexit Party.  It confirms everything I ever thought about him

     

    Who are the familiar names  you saw on twitter feed by the way Alan?

     

    #185396

    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    It was Darren O and VM, lost now in the thousands of replies but if I recall Darren said it was GG’s Enoch Powell moment

    Of course GG is only following in the footsteps of Benn and Crowe

    But perhaps he does have a point that by ignoring the leave vote, it does open the door to questioning the legitimacy of so-called UK democracy and inviting extremism.

    I’m not so sure Facebook’s ban on the right can be justified either…driving it more underground and making them feel the victims, reinforcing their supposed grievance against the globalist liberals and that white genocide will be the next step.

     

    #185397

    ALB
    Participant

    But perhaps he does have a point that by ignoring the leave vote, it does open the door to questioning the legitimacy of so-called UK democracy and inviting extremism.

    But that begs the question by assuming that there is only one interpretation of the leave vote and would be buying into to the extreme Brexshiteers interpretation that Brexit means leaving not just the EU’s political institutions but the customs union and single market too.

    There will have been many leave voters who didn’t interpret their vote that way; in fact one of the arguments of the Leave campaign was that when the UK joined the EU (or EEC, European Economic Community as it was then called) was just a “common market” but that since then it had developed towards a political union which wasn’t part of the original deal. So, any deal that involved withdrawing from the EU’s political institutions and project, as for instance May’s, would not be a betrayal of the 2016 referendum result. Anyway, it is the fault of the extreme Brexshiteers that the UK didn’t leave the EU on 29 March.

    What would be undemocratic would be for Parliament to revoke off its own bat Article 50, i.e the application to withdraw. In accordance with our own rulebook that a Party Poll result can only be revoked by another Party Poll and not by a Conference Resolution, it would be undemocratic to overturn the 2016 result unless decided by a further referendum.

    So, no, the Farage/Galloway argument does not hold water. It could even be argued that in refusing a second referendum it’s them who are being anti-democratic (though I’m not sure Farage among those as he thinks he’d win a second time, which could well be the case).

    But of course the substantive issue at stake — the trading arrangement of the UK capitalist class — is an irrelevant issue from a socialist and working-class point of view so we are talking democratic theory here.

    #185400

    Matthew Culbert
    Keymaster
    #185401

    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I’d let the lawyers fight that one out, ALB.

    My feed back was much straight forward from the Leave/Little Englander camp – Screw You, EU.

    I know some analysis have shown that it was not outright anti-foreigner xenophobia, but it was there and it was deep.

    But when the most economic distressed regions voted Leave it was also a referendum on austerity, and I think I posted once before the Remainers failed to make the link with EU financial assistance and various projects in every city, town and village.

    “…But that begs the question by assuming that there is only one interpretation of the leave vote and would be buying into to the extreme Brexshiteers interpretation…”

    Isn’t that the only one that really counts in political circles outside of Parliament right now?

    The perception from the Right and THEIR reasons for voting Leave, is as we see, is going to be betrayal…And we already know that feeling leads to disillusionment with the democratic process and the invention of scapegoats (eg 1919 Versailles Treaty)

    But I already get a sense of a growing apathy  from those on the middle ground. How many are turning the TV off when the topic appears despite the headlines the chattering classes make it

    If Brexit is going to be economically painful as all the scenarios suggest, it will be the concessions and compromises which will stoke the discontent of the Leavers. May is already being viewed as a traitor by them and an appeaser.

    But to link to the latter bit of my comment, it is going to be a little more harder to discern attitudes when Facebook/Twitter is suppressing extremist content. It may well result in what is happening now – the trend by the further right to join UKIP as an outlet of their politics

     

    #185422

    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    The outgoing French ambassador to the US opinion

    “And when the British come for a free-trade agreement, there will be blood on the walls and it will be British blood…”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/19/whimsical-uninformed-french-ambassadors-parting-verdict-on-trump

    #185429

    JClark96
    Participant

    Hello comrades,

    My name is James, I’ve just joined the party.

    Interesting the read through this, it’s good to see members opinions on the Brexit issue

    Without taking sides (no denying the outcome will not change the fundamentals for workers) the whole debacle is certainly an opportunity

    If the right chord can be struck with workers I think there is scope for getting our idea of socialism across

    Perhaps by putting forward socialism as the way out of the capitalist political impasse and the right wing binary debates which have caused it

    Would be good to discuss ways of propagating this message, as I think the conditions are ripe for its uptake

     

    #185468

    JClark96
    Participant

    “They deserve a Labour Party that offers clarity on this issue, as well as the radical vision for a new political economy achieved by working with our socialist allies inside the EU.

     

    Does it get any more vague and vacuous than this?

    #185469

    robbo203
    Participant

    Would be good to discuss ways of propagating this message, as I think the conditions are ripe for its uptake

     

    Do you have any thoughts on this yourself, James, to kick off the discussion?

    #185470

    JClark96
    Participant

    Hi Robbo.

    I think the important message is about “not taking sides” in an inherently capitalist debate.

    “Fed up of Brexit?” “What about Socialism” might grab peoples attention if we can get it in front of their eyes?

    This will also differentiate the party from other “socialist” parties who are often hard Eurosceptics, laced with arguments for “British workers”

    Obviously it also distances us from smug liberals…

    Also mentioned these ideas on another thread:

    “More resources for working people? We need Socialism, not Brexit. Leave Capitalism”

    Or variants of this, what do you reckon?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  JClark96.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  JClark96.
    #185505

    robbo203
    Participant

    Hi James

     

    Yes I can along with what you say.  My thoughts on this subject of how we ought to approach the Brexit debate are influenced by something that Alan and others have said – that many workers voted Leave not just as some racist cum nationalistic reflex but also as a protest  against the austerity measures enacted by recent governments in this era of neoliberalism.  There is a kind of naïve simplistic association between the EU as a formation operating in the interests of Big Business and these austerity measures enacted by governments at the behest of Big Business.  As if these austerity measures would not be enacted were the UK not in the EU!

    Big Business and neoliberal austerity measures would continue to apply whether or not the UK remained in the EU or left and most certainly in the case of the much touted trade deals with the US and US based corporations which the Brexiteers are hoping will materialise.  These corporations will demand their pound of flesh in the form of pushing back workers rights and cutting wages.  Of that we can be certain

     

    This  is perhaps an approach worth pursuing because there are a lot of gullible leftists who fallen for the lie that some how for the UK to leave Europe  would represent some sort of step forward for democracy – “reclaiming our country” – and further the interests of “British workers”.

     

    Such talk is delusional

     

     

     

     

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