May 31, 2020 at 10:37 am #203313Matthew CulbertKeymaster
Yes. Quite right you are there. A bad lapse for my part. I deleted on here and posted in ‘Off-topic’. Apologies.
May 31, 2020 at 10:55 am #203315Matthew CulbertKeymaster
- This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Matthew Culbert.
Animals for profit
Nearly two hundred years ago Percy Bysshe Shelley, famous for powerful, provocative poetry such as Queen Mab, The Masque of Anarchy, The Ode to Liberty, Prometheus Unbound as well as prose writings describing humans’ exploitation of their fellows, felt compelled to write of the cruelty inflicted on livestock:
“How unwarrantable is the injustice and barbarity which is exercised towards these miserable victims. They are called into existence by human artifice that they may drag out a short and miserable existence of slavery and disease, that their bodies may be mutilated, their social feelings outraged. It were much better that a sentient being should never have existed, than that it should have existed only to endure unmitigated misery” (quoted in R D Ryder Animal Revolution).May 31, 2020 at 11:41 am #203319AnonymousInactive
Exactly so. Brilliant.June 4, 2020 at 1:30 am #203439
Colin Todhunter happily does not focus upon his usual bugbear GM food and describes agroecology farming methods.June 5, 2020 at 8:40 am #203466AnonymousInactive
Overwhelmingly, this thread is monopolised by the subject of meat-eating/vegetarianism and of other animals as food or not/objects of production or not.
It would be interesting, since we have plugged the above to exhaustion (on one side or the other), to maybe focus on projects of conservation of wildlife and habitat in socialism and the reversal of capitalism’s damage in this respect, and discuss how current good ideas could be implemented and supported in a free co-operative and moneyless society, with more people able to take part than today’s conservationist minority.June 6, 2020 at 1:44 pm #203488
I found the following article very interesting.
Although not strictly a animal issue, it does fit in with the idea of conservationism.
An issue it raises is the concept of virtual water. What this means in effect is that when water is used in the production of foodstuffs, etc. through export the water cycle begins to be broken. Having read some of the literature on this it appears to be a bit of an inexact science. The water used in production does not always leave the water cycle, however it is a concept that we would need to use in Socialist Production. One thing that Vegetarians and vegans don’t always readily acknowledge is that generally speaking meat production does not involve the huge transport distances some vegetable and fruit production does. Just look in the green grocery section of the supermarket to see where a great deal of the produce comes from, especially out of season stock.
June 6, 2020 at 5:47 pm #203532AnonymousInactive
- This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Bijou Drains.
Couldn’t people dispense with certain fruits and vegetables to begin with, in favour of local produce?June 6, 2020 at 6:09 pm #203533
Couldn’t people dispense with certain fruits and vegetables to begin with, in favour of local produce?
Or eat locally produced meat?June 7, 2020 at 12:07 am #203545
“Couldn’t people dispense with certain fruits and vegetables to begin with, in favour of local produce?”
Germany enacts high ecological impacts on other countries by importing their foodstuffs and animal fodder, according to a pilot study compiled by University of Kassel and Thünen Institute scientists. The authors defined five environmental ‘footprints’ caused by Germany’s consumption of home-grown produce, as well as imports, including fish, as well as its exports — measuring biomass, land and water usage and climate impacts…Germany’s agricultural footprint from locally-grown produce was put at just over 10 million hectares (24.7 million acres), extrapolating by the authors from baseline 2015 data.
Foreign foodstuffs imported into Germany caused a far heavier footprint, around 35 million hectares — more than triple the impact of its domestic farm-forestry sectors, in terms of production, processing, through to retailing and even catering….Kassel professor Stefan Bringezu said especially significant was how Germany’s demand for foodstuffs, fodder and bioenergy supplies abroad had added to “conversion” of primal forests and moorlands into croplands in recent decades.
60% of Germany’s cereals usage goes into animal fodder, for example, dairy and pork production, and only 17% of cereals are consumed directly as foodstuffs, such as flour, by human consumers. A third of all plant oils and fats in Germany were used in the energy sector while another 28% flowed into the so-called manufactured oleochemical products.
Germany “theoretically” had land enough to be 90% self-sufficient, instead of being the “third-largest” foodstuff importer… agriculture in Germany was focused on meat and dairy production that currently occupied “two-thirds of the agricultural area, while fruit and vegetables grow on only one percent.”June 7, 2020 at 4:07 am #203549
a leaked memo instructed ministers to have “no specific policy” on animal welfare in US trade talks.June 7, 2020 at 7:09 pm #203561
An interesting but disupted statistic is the golf v housing, I know it fits into the overpopulation debate more readily, but it does also mean that prime agricultural land is often taken up by golf courses.
My own vote, in a Socialist society would be to have golf banned and golfers put into re-education camps, I know some may find that a bit extreme.
It’s not so much golf that I hate, more golfers with their stupid bloody outfits and their stupid bloody shoes and when you go to the bar in the golf clubs it’s full of bell ends. When you work in an environment where there are a group of golfers, they blather on about it all bloody day and if they are about to go for a game of golf they twat about for hours before handlike a bunch of over excited puppies. Bastards the lot of them! (The opinions expressed in the posting are of course not representing those of the SPGB as a party)
Scotland has produced some marvelous things for the world, scotch eggs, scotch pies, a great deal of whisky, haggis, scotch ale, alongside some fabulous footballers and world class music, but all the good that they have done has been counteracted in my opinion by the social blight that is golf!!!June 7, 2020 at 7:43 pm #203562
Bijou, a bit caution has to be taken with that stat about golf courses and housing land-use.
<i>”the estimate that was used in the calculations for land occupied by golf courses is overstated.”</i>
But of course we are not full up. And since you focus on Scotland, the Scottish government recognises it is under-populated and seeks more immigrants.
(there may be some difficulty in accessing the article since it is behind a pay-wall and might not want to register to get the limited free read but I have the article saved if anybody wants it posted)
June 8, 2020 at 4:43 am #203571
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by alanjjohnstone.
Another article offering the view of those who work in abattoirs, a job the local Irish are reluctant to take
Life as a meat plant worker is a low-wage, bloody business, workers told the Guardian.
“It’s horrible killing cows, when you see how they do it,” says Florin, a Romanian worker who has been employed in a meat plant in the Republic of Ireland for more than five years said. “They kill it – shoot it, cut the neck, cut the legs. I don’t like it. The cow is slow, an emotional thing. And you see the blood, and they go from being alive to being in pieces. That’s the way. When you see the conditions – it’s a dirty and nasty place, nobody is happy.” Temperatures in the factories can hover at 4C, with industrial ceiling fans that circulate cool air to keep the meat free of microbes. The job is repetitive and tough; workers take painkillers to get through their shifts…
…migrants make up the vast majority of the workforce in the meat industry is also a problem, with many travelling from Timor-Leste, Lithuania, China, Poland, South Africa, Romania, Bulgaria and Brazil to work… life is hard. Workers feel intimidated and vulnerable, and are unable to stand up for their legal rights, he says. “People are not being treated with dignity and respect.”June 8, 2020 at 5:50 am #203574ALBParticipant
So what? British workers are reluctant to work picking fruit and vegetables as it’s a shitty job that too is only done by desperate East Europeans.
But I thought a truce had been called between vegetarian propaganda and arguments to counter it. If one side won’t respect it there is no reason why those of us in the other side should either and the whole thing will kick off again.June 8, 2020 at 6:55 am #203577
“But I thought a truce had been called between vegetarian propaganda”
I’m, as previously, focusing on the working conditions of fellow-workers.
Indeed you are correct that much of the seasonal agricultural work is performed by migrant workers and the fact that world-wide both are predominantly migrant workers and both share many similarities.
But as I have tediously no doubt pointed out previously, the effect of a slaughter-house upon the mental health is very different from the back-breaking toil in the fields. You don’t hear the fruit and veg cry on in pain. That is a big difference.
Munch’s painting, the Scream, is INMHO perhaps a graphic depiction of what emotionally is the suffering for abattoir workers. Munch lived between a slaughterhouse and a lunatic asylum.
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