Jeremy Corbyn to be elected Labour Leader?
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Vin wrote:People interested in politics again. We can capture this if we give out the right signals. All his venues are bursting at the seams
Correction! People are interested in reformist politics. Nothing's changed. As for "venues bursting at the seams" history is positively littered with examples of politicians addressing huge crowds of naive and gullible people. Nothing's changed there either, more's the pity.
Question: is it better to be interested in reformist politics than not interested in politics at all? Or, put the other way round, is it better not to be interested in politics?
Alternative question:Is it better to believe in the necessity and inevitability of "austerity" policies in a capitalist society (like the SPGB and Conservative Party) while rejecting the idea of socialism as a utopian daydream……or…Is it better to believe reformist politics are worth supporting while ALSO believing that real socialism could one day be achieved and is an idea worth advocating and fighting for…
Lanz, you persist in stating that the SPGB believes in the necessity and inevitablity of austerity as if we advocate such policies. We merely keep pointing out that capitalism to return to its purpose – the accumulation of capital, a price has to be paid…and it is the workers who the employers seek to pay it. Iceland is an example where the working class willingly accepted self-sacrifice to over-come the effects of their financial collapse. Our blog recently posted on the consequences. http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2015/06/icelands-class-war.htmlIf capitalism is the cause of war and we say it cannot exist without it in some form or other, are we therefore then to be described as a war-mongering political party, advocating armed conflict?Other contributors to the thread have responded to your accusation but i don't think you have taken on board their replies and explanations of our position.We do not reject the working class resisting austerity but it is not through political action they will be effective but by industrial struggle, reclaiming a bigger share of the surplus value that they produce and forcing the owners and the parasitical hangers-on such as the banks and land-owners to take the pain of a cut. That is class war and we support that fight. But there are limits, it is not a level battlefield.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Lanz, you persist in stating that the SPGB believes in the necessity and inevitablity of austerity as if we advocate such policies. […]Other contributors to the thread have responded to your accusation but i don't think you have taken on board their replies and explanations of our position.I'm sorry if it looks as though I haven't thouroughly read or understood the other responses. I did not mean to imply that the SPGB advocates said policies. I did not state this, and both of the times I have mentioned the overlap in political opinion between the SPGB and the Conservative Party (which you describe as an accusation), I made a point of noting that it is in the context of a capitalist system. I do not believe, and I have not stated or implied, that the SPGB believes in the legitimacy of austerity policies *outside of* a capitalist economy.One of the responses I got, from robbo203, said:
Quote:It would be more accurate to say the SPGB opposes capitalism which, at times of economic slump, necessitates such policies.This states that austerity policies are necessary at times of an economic slump, in a capitalist system. This is exactly what I have pointed out (which you have described as an accusation).
alanjjohnstone wrote:Lanz, you persist in stating that the SPGB believes in the necessity and inevitablity of austerity as if we advocate such policies.I am not surprised Lanz thinks that. .Corbyn is being positive and offering hope (false hope)I think the front page of the last 2 Socialist Standarg gives the impression that Austerity is inevitable and there is nothing we can do. We should be saying that we oppose austerity and our solution is revolution by the majority. Join us not Labour
Lanz if you oppose austerity and the only way to end austerity is socialism, then join us to firght and organise for a revolution. Corbyn will not be able to control capitalism otherwise we could just keep the profit system and forget socialism. Socialism is not merely a dream. It is the only logical solution to austerity, war, poverty, mental illness, terrorism etc
Gnome, I am referring to the front covers. Average worker may not open it as it is repeating what the Tory press is telling them Austerity is inevitable and Corbyn will fail. True but it it does not invite further reading.
Vin wrote:alanjjohnstone wrote:Lanz, you persist in stating that the SPGB believes in the necessity and inevitablity of austerity as if we advocate such policies.I am not surprised Lanz thinks that. .Corbyn is being positive and offering hope (false hope)
If Corbyn is offering "false hope", which he is, then it can't be positive, at least not for the working class.
Quote:I think the front page of the last 2 Socialist Standard gives the impression that Austerity is inevitable and there is nothing we can do.It is pretty much inevitable when capitalism is in a downturn. One only has to look at what happened in Greece.
Quote:We should be saying that we oppose austerity and our solution is revolution by the majority. Join us not LabourWe do say that, repeatedly. In the current Standard, for example:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2015/no-1332-august-2015/greece-austerity-and-capitalismhttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2015/no-1332-august-2015/problem-not-tories-%E2%80%A6-its-capitalismhttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2015/no-1332-august-2015/editorial-seven-lean-years
The only problem with using tactics seen in some of the Facebook images and the Sept' Socialist Standard, is they don't work.Who are they aimed at? Those who already dislike Corbyn and his politics or supporters of his politics? Or perhaps some hazey middle ground of "don't knows"?Using attack tactics actually turns people off and has no effect on believers.If the SPGB are serious at recruiting supporters of "lost causes" it's time to quit the negative attack policy and use more creative and clever tactics/campaigns etc. You'd think that after one hundred and eleven years, lessons would by now be learnt.
DJP wrote:I think this video definitely has something we should be using. Instead of pointing out why people are wrong, which only strengthens their beliefs, we should ask them to explain why they believe what they do, the process of having to come up with an explanation softens peoples viewshttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/are-all-internet-discussion-doomed?page=7Check out the video and you should realise (or perhaps not) that attack/smear campaigns don't achieve the desired effect.Time to change tactics?
Quote:"it's time to quit the negative attack policy and use more creative and clever tactics/campaigns etc."No and Yes, SPWe have to still attack capitalism as a flawed and sterile system and that means attacking its defenders even if they don't consider themselves to be. We require to criticise mystifiers who substitute reform for revolution. But we don't need to solely rely on this approach of exposure and unmasking.I, for one, have consistently suggested that we do need to project a clearer picture of what socialism would be like…If we say socialism is a feasible, practical reality for today then we are the generation that must detail and describe what we desire to create, building upon the foundations that exists today and offering a re-model and re-shaping of today's society. I fail to see the positive side of abdicating responsibility and passing it on to future generations. That only confirms those doubters that say socialism is something to be achieved in the far-off future. A postponing a debate and discussion that socialism is possible right now. We have to instil confidence in the future of the socialist movement. We have to bring to the fore a vision of what socialism means and if we don't then we will be seen as Moaning Minnies rather than presenting a positive alternative that people can contribute their own ideas and activity to as in that the emancipation must be of the working class itself…not the children or children of today's workers…Lets really argue that you and i will actually see socialism in our life-times and not another 111 years away…that simply agrees with Lenin's guess of 500 years for socialism to come (okay, give or take the odd century)
You slightly misunderstand what I'm getting at Alan. It's my fault as I omitted a couple of words from the sentence you quote. I had intended to include the words "simple and amateurish" in reference to the type of tactics being discussed here. However I thought them too negative, so left them out.There's nothing wrong with attacking capitalism and its supporters, I'm not suggesting the SPGB stop that. I'm just advocating a more thought out approach, considering short sharp attack/smear tactics are doomed to fail.
Green Party propose elecion pact with a Corbyn-led Labour Party:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/my-message-to-jeremy-corbyn-i-can-help-you-build-a-progressive-majority-10469934.htmlWell, yes, the Green Party stole Old Labour's clothes and now Corbyn looks like taking them back.
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