September 30, 2022 at 6:56 pm #233930AnonymousInactive
A simple rule for deciding whether a country is capitalist or not is to see if the producers are excluded from ownership and control of the means of production and are forced to sell their mental and physical energies for a wage to live.
That is a particular conception that the left-wingers and seudo socialists do not understand, the workers can be exploited at 100% to obtain surplus value and are 100% wage slaves, and that country is socialist, the main character of capitalism is not only private property, it is wage slavery, the soviet did not have the traditional concept of private property, but there was wage slavery and there was a ruling class, as well they were atheist capitalistsOctober 4, 2022 at 2:37 am #234103alanjjohnstoneKeymaster
A not-so-good rebuttal of Ron Leighton’s position by progressive Kim Petersen
Having accused him of simplistic analysis, Petersen parrot fashion reveals his own ignorance of Marxism by repeating the claim that socialism and communism are different.
He leaves his e-mail if anybody wishes to correct him. I may do so if I find myself with few spare moments.October 4, 2022 at 3:15 am #234105AnonymousInactive
For most of those people you can apply this message which was written on the page of the Socialist Party :
“Agree but for some, a cogent and thoughtful argument is like a red rag to a bull, because they go into a discussion with a mindset they don’t intend to change, full stop.”
I have explained to hundred of Leninists that socialism and communism have the same meaning and that both expressions were used interchangeably by Marx and Engels, and citations have been given but they continue with the opposite arguments because they are Leninists they are not Marxist and to accept it they must abandon Leninism, it is like removing the legs to a table, it will collapse in the floor,
CLR James rejected the Vanguard Party to lead but he never rejected Trotskyism and Leninism, he did not go deeper, because one of the components of Leninism and Bolshevikism is the vanguard party concept and Trotsky’s concept of the permanent revolution, he would have been forced to reject everything
It is like explaining to an anti-communist that communism has never been established, he/she will find arguments to continue with their old analysis. They need an ideological exorcism.
There was a Leninist organization that started to raise critiques against all the Bolsheviks leaders and when they tried to raise critiques against Lenin the whole organization fell apart and everybody leftOctober 4, 2022 at 6:47 am #234118
I think getting embroiled with Lefties doesn’t serve socialism in the slightest.
They are a tiny minority, all of them, and can be left to fester. The more we get into polemics with them, the more we become, like them, alienated from the majority of the working class.October 4, 2022 at 8:33 am #234122alanjjohnstoneKeymaster
I sent what I consider to be a civil and not a very adversarial e-mail mentioning my partisan affiliation to the WSM but citing non-party sources to challenge his claims and I await a reply.October 4, 2022 at 2:58 pm #234141AnonymousInactive
I prefer to argue with Jehovah’s Witness, at least some of them have read the Bible. Most lefties have not read anything about socialism, and they do not want to open the windows and doors of their mind to see new ideas.
They have not read anything about Lenin and they are Marxist Leninists, and if you tell me that Lenin was not a communist and that he was not a Marxist you will blow up one of their electrical fuses.
A Cadres in a study group will explain to them the catechism of the party but they will not question anything because they do not read or study, and the teacher does not know anything either, they are distorted ideas coming from somebody else, therefore, to demonstrate that socialism and communism are both the same it is a very difficult task because that division is related to the so-called workers state,
There are some lefties still talking about the two “stages of revolution,” and capitalism exists in every corner of the earth, it was another distortion made by the opportunist Lenin, that is the reason why he adopted Trotsky’s conception of the permanent revolution, but to tell to a Stalinist or Maoist that Lenin did that is a capital sin
Even more, if you tell a Leninist that Lenin adopted several conceptions from Bukharin you are going to blow up more fuses, but to understand that you must read Nikolai Bukharin and they are not going to do that.
They might accept that Lenin learned some ideas from Kaustky but they are not going to accept that Kautsky took the vanguard party concept from Ferdinand Lasalle and that the vanguard party was only a temporary measure applicable to Russia.
If you go deeper and deeper you are going to blow up the whole box of fusesOctober 4, 2022 at 3:43 pm #234154AnonymousInactive
We have had some Maoist gurus in this forum who have said that China is a mixed economy of capitalism and socialism, which is an extraordinary salad because socialism must be a post-capitalist society, and some are just repeating Krushchev’s ideas of the co-existence of capitalism and communism, a guy that Mao and Hoxha rejected in 1959-1961October 4, 2022 at 4:23 pm #234165AnonymousInactive
I think getting embroiled with Lefties doesn’t serve socialism in the slightest.
They are a tiny minority, all of them, and can be left to fester. The more we get into polemics with them, the more we become, like them, alienated from the majority of the working class.
My grandfather did not have a school degree and never read Marx or Lenin, and his only source of information was Moscow Radio, Peking Radio, Tirana Radio, BBC London, and Voice of the Americas, and knew more than them about world politic, he knew that the Soviet Union was just another capitalist country, and it was not socialist. He had a Telefunken and Grundig Radio. He always wonder how the Soviet Union was able to defeat GermanyOctober 5, 2022 at 9:27 am #234232
Just as Lenin and Trotsky’s coup in November 1917 ended democratic experimentation and hideously transfigured the revolution which was already underway, so the victory of Mao’s forces in 1949 did the same in China – throttling the openness that had been the Chinese revolution until then.October 5, 2022 at 9:38 am #234233
Mao’s massive book burnings, hundreds of thousands of titles in the 1950s, dwarf the Nazi book burnings.October 5, 2022 at 9:45 am #234235
The city of Changchun in Manchuria, full of civilians was ordered by Lin Piao to be made a city of death through starvation. 160,000 perished, after having been compelled to resort to cannibalism.
“Party of the working class”?October 5, 2022 at 5:00 pm #234248AnonymousInactive
The problem is that all those killing and massacres are blamed on socialism, communism and Karl Marx, and both sides ( right and left ) have propagated a wrong conception about socialism/communism and millions of workers who do not know anything about socialism believe their lies. The Black book of communism should be titled the black book of state capitalism, and one of its author is an ex Maoist
http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/books/THE%20BLACK%20BOOK%20OF%20COMMUNISM.pdf Talking about Conspiracy Theory, this is the best conspiracy theoryOctober 7, 2022 at 9:02 pm #234398
Already by 1948 in the areas of China controlled by Mao’s forces, between 500,000 and a million people had been executed.October 9, 2022 at 6:54 pm #234454
First two years of “liberation” saw probably over two million executions (1950-52), mostly of poor villagers. Children as young as six were tortured, many committing suicide.
October 10, 2022 at 7:52 am #234464
- This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by Thomas_More.
Mao handed down killing quotas for each province. Commissars vied to match or surpass these.
One of the most prolific was Teng Hsiao-p’ing, who ruled the south-west.
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