Catalonian Referendum

May 2024 Forums General discussion Catalonian Referendum

Viewing 11 posts - 31 through 41 (of 41 total)
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  • #129587
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    Young Master Smeet wrote:
    This is utterly fantastic, as it assumes that Mackems could learn to read.

     wee yay tarkin tee, lad? Ar can reed alreet! Lad haddawayanshite ,  Wor lass 'll giya a swipe.       

    #129588
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41544849Remain in Spain demonstration…not as impressive as the separatists but still a big protest.

    #129589
    robbo203
    Participant

    Well Ive just been listening to the announcements from the parliament in Barcelona this evening and it is clear that Puigdemont has suspended the "declaration" or should that be the "proclamation* (there is a subtle technical difference between these two terms) of independence, calling for dialogue with Madrid instead. Frankly I cant see it happening now, This is as far as the independistas will go and it is call brinkmanship (probably with the aim of getting a better deal for Catalonia as an autonomous region within Spain particularly in terms of the tax burden.). Despite the referendum probably a majority oppose independence in Catalonia and there is little or no support for it from the EU. The interests of the workers would not be served either by Catalan or Spanish or any form of nationalism. Independence or no independence it would just be capitalist business as usual

    #129590
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    A rather unsympathetic article to Catalonian and Scottish separatism that might resonate with world socialists (although one failing is to equate all Scots with wealth of the nation)https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/11/catalonia-the-revolt-of-the-rich/

    Quote:
    the left does not dare to openly say that the nationalism of minorities in no less damaging for the working class cause than any other nationalism.
    #129591
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    And another short-coming is his conclusion that Corbyn and the rise of a re-newed left will resolve Scottish nationalism.

    #129592
    robbo203
    Participant
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    A rather unsympathetic article to Catalonian and Scottish separatism that might resonate with world socialists (although one failing is to equate all Scots with wealth of the nation)https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/11/catalonia-the-revolt-of-the-rich/

    Quote:
    the left does not dare to openly say that the nationalism of minorities in no less damaging for the working class cause than any other nationalism.

     The article makes some good points as well as some questionable ones as you say, Alan. As the article suggests, Catalonia is essentally a comparatively wealthy region of Spain, disgruntled at having to pay relatively high taxes to the central state (cue for the socialist argument that taxes are not a working class issue!).  Rajoy and co. mishandled the whole business from the start with his dogmatic attachment to to the argument that the constitution forbids an independence referendum.  A more intelligent capitalist politican would have recognised the reality on the ground, amended the constitution (which is just a scrap of paper after all) and allowed a legally binding referendum to take place.  In all probability the petty bourgois nationalists of Catalonia would have been defeated and that would have been the end of the matter.  Instead what we have now is a festering sore that will not go away and will in time build up around itself a whole mythological accretion of progressivism and radicalism.  And, of course, as is to be expected there will be those on the Left who will rally to this reactionary cause like flies settling around an open wound

    #129593
    ALB
    Keymaster
    robbo203 wrote:
    And, of course, as is to be expected there will be those on the Left who will rally to this reactionary cause like flies settling around an open wound

    Too true, though I'd have said like around a pile of shit. Here's an example from one of the 57 varities of Trotskyism (I'm not sure which):https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/europe/puigdemont-fears-the-consistent-struggle-for-catalonia-s-independence/I see they want the Basque Country, Galicia and Valencia to break away too. Talk about dividing the working class. Misidentity politics gone mad. Whatever happened to "Workers of the World, Unite"?.

    #129594
    robbo203
    Participant
    ALB wrote:
    robbo203 wrote:
    And, of course, as is to be expected there will be those on the Left who will rally to this reactionary cause like flies settling around an open wound

    Too true, though I'd have said like around a pile of shit. Here's an example from one of the 57 varities of Trotskyism (I'm not sure which):https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/europe/puigdemont-fears-the-consistent-struggle-for-catalonia-s-independence/I see they want the Basque Country, Galicia and Valencia to break away too. Talk about dividing the working class. Misidentity politics gone mad. Whatever happened to "Workers of the World, Unite"?.

     Yes indeed Adam – such is the reactionary role of so much of the Left today amongst whom Lenin's bourgeiois ideas about the rights of nations to "self determination" holds sway  rather then Red Rosa Luxumburg's principled opposition to all nationalism One small point though –  a major grievance of the Catalan nationalist is the disproportionate tax burden paid (ultimately by the Catalan capitalists) to the central state.  I believe the situation in the Basque region is different where there is much greater degree of tax autonomy.  Does anyone have  any information on this? It could be quite an important factor in explaining the different trajectories of the nationalist movements in these diferent regions

    #129595
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Apparently the Spanish government relies on the Basque Nationalist Party (among others) to get its legislation through, a bit like the Tories' reliance on the DUP here.

    #129596
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    In the Scottish context, the SNP has a degree of income tax autonomy and can raise or lower taxation. But as we just seen, even to finance the ending of the public sector pay-cap, they are unwilling to exercise this discretionary power they possess.It can also change other minor taxes such as the airport taxOne thing is certain, cutting income tax will not be an option for the SNP.One additional aspect since 2014 is that the SNP hopes from Brexit to capture many of the responsibilities that were originally the EU's and thus increase its devolved powers.

    #129597
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    A bit sloganising but informativehttps://anticapital0.wordpress.com/dont-cry-for-me-catalonia/

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