Cameron’s EU deal
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Got that wrong then but I wouldn't call it an "idiots' revolt", more a protest vote by the so-called "white working class" in England and Wales outside London and Liverpool. Had to laugh though at the Tory Brexiters on TV claiming that this group had supported Brexit because they were concerned about governance, sovereignity, the constitution and all that crap, though I'm sure it will have been a protest at the fact that they don't control what happens to them.But we're right on one thing — the change is not going to be as big as both sides were arguing if the vote went for exit. No sooner was it clear that Leave was going to win than its proponents started back-tracking, saying there was no need to rush things. In fact it looks as if the UK is going to remain a member of the EU till at least the end of 2019. So no more immediate money for the NHS from "the £350 million a week sent to Brussels". No reduction of VAT on domestic energy. Not even any stop to migrants from the rest of the EU coming to fill job vacancies in Britain.These will turn out to be the usual empty politicians' promises. So, the "white working class" protest voters are going to be disappointed, "betrayed" yet again, though I don't suppose many had illusions about anything really changing.If I dare stick my neck out again, I still say that the outcome in 2020 is going to be like Norway, i.e not in the EU but with continued access to the single market in return for a payment to Brussels and acceptance of the principle of the free movement of workers looking for jobs.
stuartw2112 wrote:The Great Idiot Revolt has it. I lost a fiver. If that's all we lose, we'll be very lucky indeedI'm cock-a-hoop. On a hunch put £100 on Brexit and picked up a grand…
Well, to look on the bright side, socialists could at least build on that handy slogan – "take back control" – mindlessly pounded out by the Brexiteer nationalists, and give it some actual real susbstance . Like "taking back control" of the means of production from the capitalist monopolisers, "taking back control" of our own lives and so on and so forth. While the slogan is still fresh in the memory why not make use of it?. Next cover of the Socialist Standard? A series of meetings on the theme? As with songs so with political slogans – why should the devil have the best of them?
With this unexpected result what would be the consensus among members here? Depressed that workers are still swallowing the same old xenophobic shit, heartened that "white working class" proles have stuck the vicky up to the "political establishment" (in a very round about way) or just a feeling of being nonplussed?
ALB wrote:If I dare stick my neck out again, I still say that the outcome in 2020 is going to be like Norway, i.e not in the EU but with continued access to the single market in return for a payment to Brussels and acceptance of the principle of the free movement of workers looking for jobs.It'll be Norway like (maybe even bloc with orway and Switzeraldn?) My bet is it'll be the EU with the serial numbers filed off.
No, you don't they are here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016Only 28,033 out of 33,578,016 votes cast, which is 0.08%. We do better than that in elections. Turnout was 72%, which is not particularly high despite what the pundits were saying. So non-voters were 28% of the 46,501,241 registered voters or about 13 million.
I think xennophobia is too simplistic. I got the impression from talking to 'them' that many “UK” workers operating in the low wage economy were getting pissed off with “eastern Europeans” taking jobs. But even that is more complicated as it wasn’t so much taking jobs and lowering of wages per se; but the driving down the working conditions in that sector. All this split shift, agency work, zero hour contracts and the general increase in the intensity of labour stuff. It isn’t even just the so called “eastern Europeans” it’s the often young energetic and often quite well educated Portuguese and Spanish with the appropriate energy and middleclass work ethic etc. It shouldn’t be that hard to understand, and I realise that English is the international language etc ; but how many fluent bilingual UK council estate workers are working in Portugal cleaning toilets on £7 an hour doing 6-9am and 5-8pm? Or doing care work , serving in bars and restaurants, shops, checkout tills at Lidl; or in the grey economy driving taxis clearing £100 for a 60 hour week? A lot of this will be superficially beneath the radar for a lot of us middleclass skilled workers on this forum, maybe; when it comes to bars and restaurants, shops, checkout tills at Lidl. But it doesn’t take much to watch what is going on. Our contact with these kind of people is often admittedly brief and transient; but could you as a 35+ something keep that up for 10 hours a day? The service sector often involves human contact and taking on board all the shit associated with it. Given that, it is a bit of a dumbass question to ask why a pretty, young, educated and fluent in English Polish workers are waiting on tables in a Manchester curry house of all places? We I think as privileged western aspirational middleclass workers like our own domestic workers to be presentable and don’t want to be served by the likes of the Royle family; much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royle_Family I have no illusions about the general vulnerable intellect of the unskilled section of the UK working class. But I think ‘xenophobia’ can be a consequence of ‘genuine’ economic ‘material’ concerns. I hope that will stir the pot a bit.
I liked this comment underneath a recent article by John McDonnell in the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/labour-infighting-critical-moment-brexit): "exiledlondoner LiberalWhig 3h ago 2122***The problem for Labour is that they do not reflect the views of their constituents.***I'm not sure that any party could.All the evidence suggests that Brexit was supported by the poor more than the rich, the uneducated more than the educated, the unemployed more than the employed, and by people with the least experience of immigration. Johnson, Gove, IDS and Farage turned the most disadvantaged in our society against a common enemy – the immigrant – and put themselves forward as the defenders of the common man. How does a party start to reflect that?This vote was a roar of anger directed against the wrong targets, by those who will bear the brunt of the new order they voted for – you can't reflect something so irrational. Why were Johnson, Gove, IDS and Farage so unconcerned about the dangers of Brexit? Because they couldn't give a flying fuck about those who gave them their victory, and who, in the short term at least, will pay for it.The Remain campaign was appalling. The Tories regarded the campaign as an internal party matter, and Labour were content to leave them to it. I don't think either party will be forgiven."
Dave B
Quote:A lot of this will be superficially beneath the radar for a lot of us middleclass skilled workers on this forumNo, it was not beneath the radar for socialists. We were all painfully aware of that feeling from a sector of fellow workers.We simply lost the argument. I think the psychology of conspiracy theorists were at play. Disproving the arguments paradoxically leads to an entrenchment of them. Socialists well versed in the facts are treated with the same disdain as all those "experts" who were casually dismissed by the Leave camp.Meel is correct. It was all emotional. The EU vote "was a roar of anger". RL posted a short ode on the SOYMB blog that sums it all upThe Brexiteers, the Brexiteers,Have played upon on the people’s fears;But when their promises go lame,And there is no E.U. to blame,Who will they scapegoat for the tears? I am not surprised that the regions that voted for the EU were London and Scotland, regions who are not as xenophobic as other places. I was surprised by the Welsh vote – a region that has benefited from EU cash (and doing so well in the Euros)The blog has particularly concentrated on the issue of migrants and refugees. If the Party is to centre its future activities upon its constituency then it has to be aimed at the idea of world socialism. Even if it is a smaller audience, it is a more receptive one. We directly challenge our main adversaries and we appeal to those who are on the way of rejecting much of the mainstream ideas of sovereignty and nationalism.YMS has suggested Rule 25 online conference. Yet once more, i am suggesting that we subject the party as a whole to an extensive MOT, and the EU vote is just one aspect and topic of what we need to do to re-fashion our image and re-mold the Party's approach to politics.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Meel is correct. It was all emotional. The EU vote "was a roar of anger". .I totally agree. And the focus as far as socialists are concerned must now be on showing how and why all that anger was misdirected. The Brexit slogan – "take back control" – is something we need to build on and invest with real meaning not the sham meaning afforded by the nationalists. This is too good and opportunity to miss. I have been heavily involved in the Referendum debate over on FB forums like Capitalism vs Socialism. Over time you tend to develop antennae that pick up the vibrations folk give off. I've noticed, since the referendum vote, a quite sudden falling off of the nastiness , hostility and gung ho jingoism of the Brexit lot. The mood of triumphalism may perhaps be wearing off sooner than we expected, giving way to a kind of rising anxiety. I don't think many people expected the Leave camp to win and, now that it has, the reality is beginning to sink in as to what this might actually mean. I don't think it is coincidence that Johnson, Gove and co are now back peddling , softening their approach to Europe , even proclaiming themselves to be Europeans and all while stressing that withdrawal from Europe is gonna be a long term process (in contrast to the Eurocrats who feel peeved and want a quick divorce and be done with it). I smell a rat frankly The Economist puts its finger on some of the dilemmas a new post Brexit government will have to contend with:"Accordingly, the Leave side promised supporters both a thriving economy and control over immigration. But Britons cannot have that outcome just by voting for it. If they want access to the EU’s single market and to enjoy the wealth it brings, they will have to accept free movement of people. If Britain rejects free movement, it will have to pay the price of being excluded from the single market. The country must pick between curbing migration and maximising wealth." (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21701265-how-minimise-damage-britains-senseless-self-inflicted-blow-tragic-split?force=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fpe%2Fed%2Fatragicsplit) So much for "taking back control". The Brexit campaign was all about trying to have your cake and eat it and now is the opportunity to ram home this very point
Yes, Robbo, I agree. We’ll have to get with the populist card, don’t we. Emotions seem to trump cool logic more often than not.Could we have some success in convincing people they need to “get their country back” from the real culprits? I certainly think our side should capitalise on the phrase.Maybe even better, play both cards, the emotional one and the logical one, a two-pronged attack.I have been wondering about something else, and perhaps someone can help me out on this one. Why the huge discrepancy of the “anger vote” between England and Scotland? I doubt things are completely rosy for workers in Scotland either.I think the SNP has something to do with it. Their leaders Salmond and Sturgeon seem to be cut from different cloth than the likes of Cameron, Johnson, Blair and Mandelson. Because of the SNP’s “progressive” face, workers in Scotland have more hope, maybe. I also think there is a general mood of more respects for the underclass and people struggling in Scotland. This is an anecdotal impression I have from friends who have more of a direct involvement with the country. For example, they did not implement the hated “bedroom tax” in Scotland (I was told anecdotally, I have not checked this out). Does anyone agree, or have a different explanation?
alanjjohnstone wrote:YMS has suggested Rule 25 online conference. Yet once more, i am suggesting that we subject the party as a whole to an extensive MOT, and the EU vote is just one aspect and topic of what we need to do to re-fashion our image and re-mold the Party's approach to politics.No, I've suggested a party meeting, not a conference.
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