Cameron’s EU deal
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So PM Cameron and EU regulations is the lesser of two evils? Which ruling class should I vote for? A European one or a British one.
Yes. The choice on the table is between the elite status quo, or potentially extremely damaging upheaval while a new, more reactionary elite is formed. That's the choice. Abstain if you like, but abstaining is a choice with consequences too.
It probably is but that doesn't mean we should vote for it. Anyway, it looks again that it's not going to happen, so we can all sit back and relax.
Has the referendum campaign resulted in an irreparable Tory Party?Has the Remain vote drawn the teeth of UKIP which can now only be an openly anti-immigration party in future rather than disguise it as anti-EU?But to be truthful, like the extraordinary focus upon the English football team, there are more important things going on in the world for the working class and for world socialists than Brexit, imho.The consequences of 65 million refugees and climate change to name only two but i doubt either will shift people off their fat backsides to do anything other than continue to whine and whinge….Roll on catastrophe and the apocalypse
This is the left-wing appeal to vote leave just to balance out the debate herehttp://www.alternet.org/world/eu-neoliberal-nightmare
Be nice to end on a note of agreement – I prefer your abtaining position to that of the dreaming Lexiteers. Useful idiots for UKIP.
I didn't abstain. I cast my vote for neither option, but wrote in 'worldsocialism (SPGB)'. I know a number of others (not members) who will do likewise after speaking to me. Voting for either capitalist option has the same consequences as at present. I also take ot the letters collumns of the Grauniad with this sort of stuff, https://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/76692623I am not going to waste valuable time advocating versions of capitalist management over workers there are too few socialists as it is.
From a Zeitgeist source…
gnome wrote:From a Zeitgeist source…Good for whoever that was. Shows some consistency and focus on their main goal. Why vote for what you don't want and get it?
Why vote for what you don't want and get it?If you want to abstain Matt, that's up to you, but in effect it is a vote for what you don't want – a UK Plc that is even worse than it is now for workers.
No it's not. That doesn't follow. Why is an abstention a vote for one of the two sides and why for Leave and not Remain? From your point of view, Stuart, as you've already acknowledged, it's not a vote for Leave:
stuart2112 wrote:I prefer your abtaining position to that of the dreaming Lexiteers.So, for you, abstaining is the lesser evil !
I was just trying to find something nice to say! Votes for Remain are counted, and weigh against those for Brexit. Votes for "Jez for PM" or whatever it is you're saying to scrawl across it aren't. Simples.
Thanks but the other thing you are ignoring is the actual question (see the Zeitgeist voting paper above). It's
Quote:Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?So it's not about what the Leave mob promise or threaten to do if the UK votes to leave. What would happen in that event is an open question, to be decided by negotiations between the UK and the EU. All their promises and plans are so much hot air, even though they have stoked up anti-immigrant and xenophobic prejudices.One outcome would be that the UK ends up like Norway, i.e. with full free access to the single tariff-less market with common standards but still having to pay something to the EU for this access and having to accept the free movement of labour.Given that a majority of the UK capitalist class and of UK MPs are for Remain in order to have access to this market, this could well be the most likely outcome in the event of a Leave vote. Norway, incidentally, has ended up in this position after twice voting in a referendum not to join the EU. Maybe, as the UK has more clout than Norway, it could get a better deal, but basically it would be no change. The only change would be in the institutional arrangements for decision-making.So Keep Calm and Carry On.
Yes, good points, I accept all that. I am calm, and I shall carry on campaigning with Labour In, but the worry is that a Brexit win will, as you've said, give a boost to racism and xenophobia, if nothing worse. Still, nothing new to add. See you on the other side of the result. I have a bet with Richard Headicar that Remain will win, which I expect to win, but we'll see! Cheers
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