Young Master Smeet
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I've said it before, I'll say it again.
Charlie and Fred wrote:Once upon a time a valiant fellow had the idea that men were drowned in water only because they were possessed with the idea of gravity. If they were to knock this notion out of their heads, say by stating it to be a superstition, a religious concept, they would be sublimely proof against any danger from water. His whole life long he fought against the illusion of gravity, of whose harmful results all statistics brought him new and manifold evidence.JUst because we know how things are now, doesn't mean they always have to be the same, but if we don't know how they are, we won't be able to change them.
But the world as it stands isn't standing still, it moves, and our understanding is both shaped by and shaping of that movement. As Charlie wrote, "To discover the various uses of things is the work of history."
LBird,I think this comes down to the nub between us. I'd say socialism arises from the world as it actually exists now, and the only way we can understand socialism is by understanding this world (and therein the possibilities that present themselves to us which, whilst they may have already and always been present were not conscious previously). That is, revolution does not come from a rejection from the world as it is, but through a dogged grip on the world as it stands. I think that's the key distinstion between utopianism and marxian socialism.
SP,The Socialist Party has been succesful in staying in business, and developing a clear critique of capitalism and reaching out to let as many workers as we can manage know we're here. What I am sayiong is that our propaganda won't make socialists, we're just holding up a sign to let workers who have come to socialist ideas themselves know we're here. The revolution will not happen because workers have or have not been exposed to our case. They won't even read it unlss they feel the need it, they'll continue to support capitalism as long as they feel they need capitalism. Propaganda, whilst it does exist and is useful to the ruling class, cannot overrule the lived experience and capacity of workers to think. It only works now because it is going with the grain.
LBird,Having already provided quick descriptions of materialism, idealism and marxism I also provided a definition of epistemology. I'll also note I pointed out that your blank page description of idealism was just plain wrong, so of no use to workers whatever.SP,
Quote:For most would be socialists, it takes active investigation that can include asking questions and debating (it's what this forum is for).Quite, and most workers don't even feel the need to begin that level of examination. If the workers wanted socialist ideas, they'd be beating a path to our door. Or, as I'm sure you did, they'd be putting across socialist ideas themselves. As it stands, for them the sun is green, and their daily experience concurrs with this.
AFAICS I've answered it. Maybe you're asking the wrong question? Anyway, of course, the point is that the line isn't static, it's being drawn (or maybe it's carved out like canals with water flowing through it); or better still, the line is an animation, and changes subtley each time its drawn.
LBird,erm. I'm sorry, I'm lost now. I explained:Idealism: [object] is in your mind.Materialism: [object] is outside your mind.Historical Materialism: [Object] is your mind.How's about that? Like a line drawn first into the shape of, say, a man, and then a house, and then a cat. One continuous line. It's the same line manifesting as several different things.
Yes, capitalist and workers consciousnesses are of the same substance, and part of the same reality, which is transformed into various different elements by the operation of history and through its interaction with itself. We are all parts of one system.
SP, well, ask yourself, if the establishment kept swearing blind that the sun was green and sunlight harmful, would you believe them? or, would you find that your lived experience, and your need to go out into the sunlight would contradict them? I'm suggesting that indoctrination and ideological maipulation wouldn't work if working class people didn't find that reality as explained to them (and how they identify themselves) worked. As EP Thompson noted in the making of the English Working Class, the working class is not the passive object of the capitalists. Durham Miners fought hard to create the wages system and a free market in labour, for example.
Lbird, no, I'm the meatbot. But, lets try.Idealism: the page can only exist inside your mind.Materialism: the page exists outside your mind.Historical Materialism: the page and your mind are the same thing.
Lbird wrote:To the idealist, there is no limit to their creative originality in their drawing of a picture of knowledge. They can draw freehand on a blank canvas, and any individual artist can freely improvise, with no external framework to impose a pre-existing structure upon their individual musings and scribbles.That's not idealism. Many idealists, such as Hegel would suggest that the pad is numbered as well, except that the dots are ideas. A dualist would say there are two pads that somehow match each other, and a materialist says the dots exist outside the human mind.
SP,Sorry, I was ansswering:
Quote:I was hoping you would be able to provide some possible analysis to the reasons why milions of workers have conciously chosen to reject the socialist case?and in a hurry, but I think my answer is plain enough.
I remember in March 1998 the Guardian ran a leader suggesting William Morris would have approved of Lord Chancellor Derry Irvine's luxurious rennovation of his official apartments.
Guardian Nonsense wrote:FOR THE baying members of the hunt, the pursuit of Lord Irvine over the cost of re-decorating his state apartments has been rollicking good fun. The no -expense-spared refurbishment has given the impression that his Lordship rivals Marie Antoinette in terms of political sensitivity. He would certainly struggle to win any awards for PR. But is that such a bad thing? Those pillorying the Lord Chancellor tend also to be those shedding crocodile tears for the dumbing down of politics. One of the main criticisms of Westminster is that it is awash with on-message automatons and short on characters. Well, the Lord Chancellor is certainly a character….In fact, Lord Irvine is merely following a noble tradition that dates back more than a century to Labour's roots in William Morris's Arts and Crafts movement. Morris saw socialism as the contrast between beauty and ugliness, and between the worker as artisan craftsman and the worker as slave to the machine. In an era of mass output, it is good the Government is helping high-quality small firms to thrive.For anyone who has read Morris' journalism, i doubt very much he would have had anything but baying venom for Lord Irvine.
