Young Master Smeet
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HUD955, I found the title of the book I was thinking of (post #19):
Quote:Violence and warfare among hunter-gatherers / Mark W. Allen, Terry L. Jones, editors. Walnut Creek, California : Left Coast Press, [2014] Allen, Mark W., editor. 9781611329391 hardbackrobbo203 wrote:There is absolutely no way round this for revolutionary Socialists. If human nature is warlike because hunter gatherers were warlike then that rules out socialism. QEDI don't think this does follow. If in certain (knowable) circumstances prehistoric humans engaged in warfare, we can know to build around and avoid those warfare conditions. The case for socialism certainly doesn't rest on humans being naturally angels, or need a 'New Man', and it rests on the impulse for freedom and the non-necessity of class. If it turns out, when we are free, that humans are by nature Evil, so be it.We might even decide to divide the world up, like, like the Byzantine chariot fans, Blues and Greens, and have wars between ourselves for n o good reason, because that is our natyure. I doubt that would happen, but whether it would or not has no bearing on the case for socialism.
This si the sort of nonense they are peddling:http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/ukraine-and-the-new-hitler-fairy-tale-what-lies-behind-the-putin-did-it-conspiracy-theory
Quote:However, when a right-wing regime seized power in a violent coup in Ukraine on Russia’s border and then took provocative actions against Ukraine’s ethnic Russians, Putin responded to calls from Crimea – both from its parliament and a referendum – to take the peninsula back into Russia.Putin also feared that the new powers in Kiev might give the historic Russian naval base at Sevastopol to NATO with its nuclear-armed submarines. In other words, as much as the New York Times has bandied about claims of a Russian “invasion” of Crimea, the Crimeans requested Russia’s intervention and up to 25,000 Russian troops were already there in the agreement with Ukraine over the naval base.The article is right that Russia has reacted to encroachments upon its traditional sphere of influence (or Imperialist Sphere, if you want to speak Trot). That Russia's attempt to intefere in Ukraine is just as despicable as the NATO/EU's doesn't seem to arise.In the tiny minds of these people, taking sides is what counts, people are dying and they areassisting in the deaths by giving intellectual covering fire. Worse, under the banner of 'Stop the war' they are calling for, and supporting war, which is going to make the job of future anti-war activists a lot ruddy harder.The need for the workers of Ukraine is peace, now. A democratic settlement and a touch of freedom.
Stuart, you're onto a good point,moving the decision over that is truth to any sort of vote just brings back the same questions as it arouses for an individual (and adds the further question of deciding what is the voting polity: whites in the the early 20th century US outnumbered blacks, and literally voted to make them inferior, so I guess black people must have been inferior, by that logic).Of course, if an observable event happens, and people accept it happened, then some logical deductions fall ineluctably. If, say, a group of people managed to send a coke can into space, and it travelled 12 million kilometres in four seconds, then we would know that it is possible for information to travel faster than the speed of light (and we would know that Einstein passim was wrong).I suppose it would be possible to vote on whether people believed that happened or not, but I don't see much point in that. What is more useful, would be if they were voting that it was valid sscience: validation is different from verification, and defintiely, to my mind, belongs to the social sphere.Of course, the problem with anthropology is that its objects aren't amenable to repeat experiments, and everything is subject to interpretation.There are masses of evidence that inter human viuolence occurs within hunter gatherer tribes,and that violence has occurred in history. The real argument is how do you define war? Now, the first archaeological evidence for war, IIRC is about 7,000 BCE, where there is evidence that a group of humans stood their ground and died in a ditch, we've found that mass grave. The problem is such actions might have occurred before.Anyone who has been out on a saturday night and seen two gangs of lads kicking at each other is witnessing something on the size and scale of what would have been a war between HG groups. But we don't call Cardiff a warzone, do we? These fights do lead to deaths, especially in London, but the numbers of deaths are small.Stuart is right that it's obvious that in the right circumstance we all have the capacity and prepensity for lethal violence, the point is do we have to organise it on a permenant and official basis?
So far as I'm concerned "socialist party" and "workers councils" are exact synonyms. A freely formed association of socialistically minded workers will be formed to assume control of political power. Now, that might mean simply taking control of local decision making and existing power structures if possible, so local councils and national parliaments will have socialist majorities through which our association(s) can implement our programme of socialisation.The reality of a mass conscious movement will be sufficient to overcome procedural chicanery and to deter military opposition. After that, it is down to extending democratic operation and control into the necessary parts of the state we want to retain (after all, who wants to die of dissentry the day after the revolution?).
That individualism can also manifest as indifference: I've herad someone mention that some huinter gatherers have been known to just watch someone drowning.
1) We do share the same biology. That is the basic fact.2) The common ground of humanity is a necessary component of understanding the difference in circumstance.3) There is no such thing as the masses, there are only concrete subjects in concrete circumstances.Or, put another way:
Quote Bomb wrote:The premises from which we begin are not arbitrary ones, not dogmas, but real premises from which abstraction can only be made in the imagination. They are the real individuals, their activity and the material conditions under which they live, both those which they find already existing and those produced by their activity. These premises can thus be verified in a purely empirical way.The first premise of all human history is, of course, the existence of living human individuals. Thus the first fact to be established is the physical organisation of these individuals and their consequent relation to the rest of nature.Thus, hunter gatherer bands of a specific type (the immediate gratification kind) tend towards small mobile groups, with limited possessions, wherein individual humans can wander off and join other bands, and in which no material bonds are formed other than direct exposure to nature.There is more than this, but that is the rock bottom.
I'm going to regret this: but isn't ideology intrinsic (inherent) in the utterence? i.e. don't we address ideology by dealing with the expressed ideas, rather than seeking an additional text in the formal account of the utterances conditions?
You know, I'd have thought the a description of people wandering from site to site and wandering from band to band, and the concommittant requirement to not have too much by way material goods was a description of a material process of production.As it is, I've just been pointing up information that might help discussion.
robbo203,Bit of hunting about and I think I've found the title of the book I saw:
Quote:Violence and warfare among hunter-gatherers / Mark W. Allen, Terry L. Jones, editors. Walnut Creek, California : Left Coast Press, [2014] Allen, Mark W., editor. 9781611329391 hardbackCan't find any reviews. This is the blurb:
Quote:How did warfare originate? Was it human genetics? Social competition? The rise of complexity? Intensive study of the long-term hunter-gatherer past brings us closer to an answer. The original chapters in this volume examine cultural areas on five continents where there is archaeological, ethnographic, and historical evidence for hunter-gatherer conflict despite high degrees of mobility, small populations, and relatively egalitarian social structures. Their controversial conclusions will elicit interest among anthropologists, archaeologists, and those in conflict studies.And the table of contents is here: http://www.lcoastpress.com/book_toc.php?id=486 Public libraries should be able to supply if you don't fancy shelling out eighty dollars….
I've not read it through, but in the search for freely available texts:http://radicalanthropologygroup.org/sites/default/files/pdf/class_text_125.pdf
Quote:Hunter-gatherers are highly mobile, not just in the sense of whole bandsmoving from place to place but also in the sense of individuals and familiesmoving from band to band. Bands are not permanent structures with fixedmemberships. Everyone has friends and relatives in other bands who wouldwelcome them in. Because of this, and because they are not encumbered byproperty, individuals may move at a moment’s notice from one band to another.People move from band to band for marriage, but they also move to get awayfrom conflicts or simply because they are more attracted to the people or theprocedures that exist in another band. Disgruntled groups of people withinany band may also, at any time, leave the original band and start a new one.Thus, the decision to belong to any given band is always a person’s choice.The freedom of band members to leave sets the stage for the other playlike qualities of hunter-gatherer life.His source for this is Hunters and Gatherers, Volume 1: History, Evolution, and Social Change, ed. Tim Ingold, David Riches, and James Woodburn (1988) Happy, erm, hunting.
Robin,as I say, it was a flick through. Certainly it was dealt with contemporary hunter gatherers (it was a collection of essays, and I just scanned the conclusion). But, as I said, sometimes the definition is key "systematic" violence is different from "socially sanctioned violence". Obviously, systems don't leave archaeological evidence (especially in warfare between two hunting bands, say), also, hunter gatherer warfare, from things I read, suggest ambush and slaughter would be preferred to a stand up fight.The problem is, we do, I believe, know that the principle of 'substitutability' comes fairly early in the expansion of communities beyond isolated family groups (i.e. you kill my nephew, so I consider it fair play to kill your cousin in revenge). Also the doctrine of 'we were here first' would suggest that being prepared to chase of interlopers.So, while I wouldn't expect two large groups to confront each other, I wouldn't be surprised if groups of hunters went after strays and stragglers from nearby groups when they could.
I've lost the reference, a book recently came across my desk looking at early warfare. The conclusion (all I had time to look at) was that if you defien war as "socially sanctioned violence against another polity" (I think that was teh formula) then war has always been with us, including among hunter gatherers, however, if you don't take on that definition, and become stricter in your definition of war, then it hasn't been.
SP,my ability to screen information is context dependent. The channel limitations of an online forum mean it takes considerable time to decide whether to ignore a post, whereas in real life I have sight (and smell, etc.) in order to decide whether I want to listen to a person. BY coming to this forum, I have made a series of decisions regarding filtering of information, and the content I expect here.I do deny that pre-moderation is censorship, in fact I maintain it is the very opposite, and much better than simply silencing someone. It *could* be used for censorship, but I have confidence in the robust procedures we have in place to prevent that.Deliberate disruption is a form of censorship, but some people create noise inadvertently, as we have seen, some people just do not know how to behave on online forums, and create a lot of posts about themselves, and we need ways to help them get their ideas across without simply shutting the door on them.Our responses cannot be abstract and 'rule driven' but need to be made on a case by case basis tailored for each individual and their communication and information needs.
A couple of aspects.
Article four of the European Convention of Human rights wrote:Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent Statesfrom requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprisesand
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights wrote:Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.I've bolded a few words, to highlight an important aspect, which is the right to receive information. This, in part, covers what I mean by maintaining channel clarity. If someone is shouting at a public meeting, or sending spam to a forum, we have to screen that out. Now, at, say, Speakers Corner, I just walk away from a platform I don't like, or tune out a speaker, and concentrate on theone I want to hear. On the internet I might us Google alerts. Here on the forum, I rely on myself and editors, who might screen some of the noise and let some of it through.I find it had to believe that some individuals here would infring my rights to receive information, rather than allow a moderator to use the moderation facility to check posts from suspect/possibly disruptive sources for useful information, and censor people by silencing them.
