Wez
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‘Therefore to simply dismiss the results of these workers’ efforts, because of the social system they were produced in is a little like denying the artistic value of Michealangelo’s work because the Pope paid for it.’
‘To put it into context, 100s of people are dying daily in the UK, due to Covid. Do you seriously believe that “big Pharma” and the government are suppressing big numbers of deaths or illness from the vaccine???’BD – Where do you get the impression that I dismiss the results of the worker’s efforts?? Also where does the idea that I believe that big pharma and the government are involved in a conspiracy come from?? Why do I have to keep repeating that I’m not an antivaxxer? It would appear that nobody actually reads what I say.
My contention is that government and big pharma have lost credibility because of the lies of the past. As a lifelong recipient of NHS treatment I can tell you with confidence that what one doctor tells you will be flatly contradicted by another – it is very difficult to maintain a belief in the coherence of medical science at the sharp end. The debate about the nature of science itself is a complex subject that perhaps wasn’t appropriate on this thread.Alan – Was the Chartist movement widespread among the working class? Were they not a minority? Of course you’re correct that the inequalities were more obvious at that time but I wouldn’t call it ‘common sense’ because the term is now associated with prejudice and reactionary conditioning – perhaps ‘class conscious’ is a better term? Would you call their movement a success historically? Other movements like the Luddites and various religious organisations seem to have been more popular – but I defer to your knowledge of that time in working class history. Ultimately they all failed of course because from the diggers to the chartists they were fundamentally idealistic and we had to wait for Marx to give us the reason for their failure.
‘Have we over-complicated the whole socialist case? It was all so much easier in the past…’
Alan – perhaps the reverse is true. Some in the Party seem to want us to jump on the populist platform and proclaim our anti-intellectualism. I’ve been trying to communicate our case for 40 years and I don’t remember it being any easier.
‘But, to return to the subject of the thread, what is the evidence that current medical practice is not appropriate to deal with the pandemic? It’s not the bogey of “capitalist medicine” which once got a mention here before being slapped down, is it?’
ALB – At the risk of repeating myself I’m only trying to explain why some are dubious and even suspicious about the vaccines. As for my sympathy for a ‘notorious critic of science’ all I can say is that his work is quoted in many serious philosophical studies of science and he has mainly been branded as notorious by those who fear any alternative to their faith systems. Don’t forget that many on the Left regard us as notorious renegades but that doesn’t make them correct does it? I recommend you read some of his work and make up your own mind.
ALB – What do you think of the use of science in the disciplines of sociology, anthropology, psychology etc.? None of them seem favourable to socialism as far as I know.
Don’t know where my last post went so I’ll repeat it:
MN – Absolutely.
Alan – You know, as well as I, that ‘common sense’ arguments tend to legitimize prejudice and ideological conditioning. Many would regard it as common sense that capital punishment is a deterrent to murder or that slapping a child provides it with a moral compass. Indeed most would say that the case for socialism was against all common sense.MN – Absolutely.
Alan – You know, as well as I, that common sense arguments tend to legitimize prejudice and ideological conditioning. For instance the idea that capital punishment is a deterrent to murder or that slapping children provides them with a moral compass. Most people would regard the case for socialism as ‘against all common sense’.‘Someone here expressed sympathy for this sophism and had to be called out.’
ALB – Blimey – I hope you don’t mean me! I’m simply calling for the same skepticism in this matter as we use in all of our analysis. ‘Science’ is not what most people think it is and contains a great deal of ‘speculation’.
Alan – preserve us from ‘common sense’ since this is usually just another word for ignorance.
MS – This debate is about ‘coronavirus’ and about the reason why many are distrustful of their governments and their experts when it comes to information about the virus. Governments have lied so often in the past that people are rightly very skeptical about what they are told. For us this is both a good and bad thing – good in that people are no longer prepared to swallow any propaganda that comes from their governments and bad in that it creates conspiracy theories that lead to movements like QAnon and anti-vaxxers etc.‘In any event, philosophers have nothing useful to say about the coronavirus vaccines and their efficacy.’
Would it be ‘true’ to say that, for you ALB, philosophers have nothing useful to say about anything?
He most definitely was not an ‘anti-science philosopher’ – talk about tabloid journalism. What he was against was all the hype and myth that surrounds science notably the idea that there is a universal ‘method’ that, like a magic spell, can be used to discover truth.
‘A community of philosophers’ is rather like the concept of ‘herding cats’. I had been reading a lot about the philosophy of science and then I came across Feyerabend and the subject changed for me entirely.
‘If there are any specific philosophical criticisms of science that Wez would like to raise I’d be interested to hear them.’
Are you familiar with Paul Feyerabend’s philosophical work? The above quote is from a Wikipedian summary of his perspective. Of all of the philosophers of science he is the most challenging. His book ‘Against Method’ is thought provoking and provocative and I highly recommend it. I don’t agree with everything in it but I do like his iconoclastic destruction of some of the myths that surround the discipline of science.
TM – I must admit that comrade Shannon’s style is rather combative and perhaps this has influenced my responses to him. I call for a truce.
‘I’m surprised by your naïve belief in the ‘international scientific community’ which you seem to have elevated into a religion.’
How is that an insult? It is an impression. I found this quote which summarizes some of the ideas of Paul Feyerabend who I admire as a philosopher of science:
‘ Feyerabend challenges what he sees in his view as some modern myths about science, e.g., he believes that the statement ‘science is successful’ is a myth. He argues that some very basic assumptions about science are simply false and that substantial parts of scientific ideology were created on the basis of superficial generalizations that led to absurd misconceptions about the nature of human life. He claims that far from solving the pressing problems of our age, scientific theorizing glorifies ephemeral generalities at the cost of confronting the real particulars that make life meaningful.’I simply urge us not to put aside our usual skepticism for this particular issue. Again I’m surprised by your naïve belief in the ‘international scientific community’ which you seem to have elevated into a religion. Do you really believe that scientists are not subject to the same ideological and financial pressures as the rest of us? Most do not get their information from such rarified scientific sources. You almost seem to be stating that science is perfect and exists outside of the capitalist context – well that’s ok then, we’ll leave the revolution to them. I admire science as much as you do and I’m no antivaxer but experience tells me we should always be skeptical in all areas of information within this political context and science is no exception. Our case depends on a critical assessment of everything and anything in the knowledge that the profit motive always lurks somewhere in the background. I hope you will respond to this in a comradely way and do not insult me again.
