steve colborn
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There needs to be a rebuttal from the party to this Talley guy. He talks about "human weaknesses" and also "resource management" but cannot seem to look at these subjects from any other perspectve than within the paradigms of Capitalism. If one lives in a "dog eat dog" society, then one would tend to take on these characteristics.
Hey Fuzzy83, I've been a Socialist Party member, on and off, mostly on, since 1981. Played Rugby Union till 38, weight trained till 49. Guys I knew in the local WMC, treat me with, if not understanding, "respect". Now that the fit active bloke I used to be, has been beset by the MS he has had for 30 years they, the same blokes that used to give me, (what I now know to be false respect) seem to take my disability as a sign that they can talk to me, in any way they like.No need to hold back, or so they thought, or think! So now I get what they really thought and think of me, all along. Problem is, I still have my mind and the Socialist consciousness within it. More worrying for them, I still have the confidence and ability, to look after myself, "physically".So I sit, in the local WMC ( Working Mens Club), listen to the piffle and piss, that oh so often passes for thought and converse in this place and realise that it could be worse! I could be a "gulled" and "befuddled" member of the working class, licking my masters?mistresses arse, with not a clue as to the reality of the truth. Then I think, nar, I'd rather be clued up and still fighting and kicking against this fucking crap. And if anyone doesn't believe it, as I always say, "A demonstration can be arranged. Not many takers, funnily enough and all I meant was a Public Speaking Meeting
Another post on this thread;SILENCED1:15 PM on 19/11/2014@STEVECOLBORN – the system you envisage, where food & shelter will be available for everyone, that no-one will die of treatable or preventable diseases.Who exactly is going to pay for all of this? How will the costs of research to the medicine required to treat these diseases be funded?I wholehearted agree with Barnstable in that, in the UK and other capitalist countries, the opportunity exists for you to help yourself if you so desire.It's not always about greed, people want to LIVE, not merely exist. Any money that I've earned that doesn't go on bills, goes on things and experiences for my family. That isn't me being greedy, that is me living and wanting to give my family the best that I can.The money people earn is what society/circumstances has deemed their role to be worth. Should a scientist be earning the same amount of money as a cleaner? Should the scientist be no better off than a cleaner despite their work having a greater effect on the society they're part of?
Comrades, these threads are a good oppurtunity to get our message across. Why not join the site (free) and answer some of the points raised?
Two more posts on this thread;Barnstable9:18 AM on 19/11/2014Finally? I think I've always stated that many people abuse the benefit system.I must start being a little more precise with my posts if you haven't managed to understand that.Just to be clear, I'll state yet again my view on the matter.Your ideal would be a wonderful place if it were possible and I would love to be a part of it.But it isn't – people are naturally greedy and will always want a little more – Yes that includes those who you think are poor.(And again, before you twist my words, I'm discussing the UK, not the world)I am not affiliated to any political party, particularly the Conservative Party; however I am open enough to accept that on occasion they may have a good concept. Mr Tebbit's idea of relocating to find work was one of them, which I followed by moving to London when I was unemployed.The main reason for the impending failure of your ideal is that most people will do as little as possible if they know someone else will do the work for them.You could easily disprove this my putting your money where your mouth is and giving up everything you don't need to help those worse off than you, but you won't as you too are like the rest of society.Why not request that all your members sell their homes, possessions etc and set up a small socialist commune and show the rest of us how wonderful and easy it could be. You could merrily produce your own food and allow anyone to take whatever they want.Actions speak louder than words. (0) (0)You voted Rate: 0Name withheldBarnstable10:57 AM on 19/11/2014"What I do know for certain is, that if the society I and others envisage comes about, no one will die from hunger, as food will be produced to eat, full stop."By who? Who decides who does what, when and where? Do we just leave it up to individuals to decide? What do you do about those who refuse to help out? What happens if someone takes more than their fair share? Who ensures that the dirty, hard jobs are done when others have easier roles? How do you solve a problem like Maria?Ditto, for the comment – "No one will die of treatable or preventable disease"There you go, the rest of your post hasn't been ignored and I'd go as far as saying that if you can answer the above questions I may even convert.
A Capitalist/Worker relationship is about POWER. Why should we not look on other unequal POWER relationships with as much disdain?
If however, someone is found guilty and proclaims they see no harm or problem in their feelings and thoughts, for instance, on paedophilic tendencies, then what is "our" response?I suggest and moreover would expect, that a "prospective member" would be denied membership and a "current member", would have their membership revoked!Paedophilia, as with rape, is a power relationship. As Socialists we view all members of the human race as free and moreover, equal individuals and therefore would not condone but moreover "stop" overpowering of one human beings rights and "free will", by another, for their personal pleasure and personal gratification.
A self explanatory post on this thread! Barnstable10:38 AM on 18/11/2014You keep stating that there's enough to go around, but who would work to produce it if they did not benefit from their toils?As I've stated before, I don't work for what I need, I work for what I want. This is similar for most of the working population. In a world where you can have anything you need without working, where is the incentive ?We will never agree on this issue as we are arguing different concepts. You are arguing for an ideal and I am arguing for reality.Any system you care to put in place will very quickly be abused and manipulated by people to get the most out of it they can.I never stated a distribution of poverty was the way to go (Yet again another political invention of something I never said), no-one who can afford a TV, takeaways etc is in poverty. I said that it is easy to say everyone should have what they need when you have more than you need – I'd just pay more attention if I saw actions rather than words.If you and your fellow party members all gave up everything they did not need, you could make a small difference. But you never will, as you are just like the rest of us, basically greedy.Make a gesture and arrange for you and the rest of your party to give up everything they don't need to help those worse off.I can manage to understand your concept, I'm just realistic about the rationality of it all – As stated previously, I agree with the principle and agree the world would be a better place; however I am also intelligent enough to realise that the one thing that would prevent it from ever happening is people.Rich or poor, people always want a little more.
I empathise with and thouroughly understand SP's comments. Even as small as the "Movement" is at the moment, members can and indeed do, consider the problems that may arise, in a Socialist Society and speculate on how, as the "Movement" grows, we can put in place systems that can be implemented quickly, once a majority of us are "Class Conscious" enough to bring it about.As Adam say's and once again, I agree with, it is not for Socialists today to lay down blueprints for the future. Our role at this point in history is to "make Socialists" and to keep the idea alive. In 5/10/20 years time, who knows how much science will have moved on and how much this will impact on bringing Socialism about!
