robbo203
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US fascists suppress the vote. Some BMs on this site like robbo take it one step further and encourage voters to tear up their ballet. “Long live the greater evil” say the US fascists and their supporters her
Now you are being dishonest LT.
I didn’t say voters should “tear up their ballot”. I said they should “spoil their ballot” (which means something different) if there is no socialist candidate. Spoilt ballots at least get registered, torn up ballots dont even get to go in the ballot box at all. You might as well not even bother voting at all in that case
As for your other comment I treat that with contempt it deserves, There are no supporters of Trump on this site that I know of. No one here would come out with such a dumb remark “as Long Live the greater evil”
Socialist support neither the “greater evil” (Trump in the case) nor the “lesser evil” (Biden) but there is at least one fervently anti-socialist supporter of Biden’s neoliberal capitalist agenda I know of on this list who clearly does support the latter.
Namely your good self….
Whoosh … right over your head. You missed the point. Your ideas hurt the working class, my ideas help the working class. Continue living in your bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day.
LT
Sigh. Once again – socialists dont oppose reforms but reformism. Reformism indefinitely postpones socialism and keeps intact the very system that hurts the working class, which system can only be administered against the interests of the working class and in the interests of capital instead – namely capitalism. Or do you seriously think capitalism can be administered otherwise?
Since its pretty clear that you support the retention of capitalism by your entrenched opposition to revolutionary socialism and by your endorsement of the neoliberal pro-capitalist Democratic Party, doesn’t it strike you as being pretty rich of you to claim that the ideas of others here “hurt the working class.” That’s called projection.
In fact its YOUR ideas that hurt the working class, though you apparently can’t see this It is YOUR ideas that help to ensure workers remain forever submissive wage slaves. You want to condemn workers to endlessly struggle for the breadcrumbs that fall from capitalists’ table whereas genuine socialists want our fellow workers to take over the whole damn bakery
Perhaps you should follow your own advice – continue living in your own little bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day but please dont pretend that you have any intention of working to eliminate that reality that condemns these families to struggle under a system of wage slavery and perpetually hurts them.
Please dont pretend that you are some sort of socialist because that is what you are emphatically not.
Only the fascists want the ACA struck down. And there are many on this site. They want to see the working class suffer more than they already are. In other words, take what little they have and let them starve and die. We need to prove our point, say these champagne socialists, that the greater evil is better than the lesser evil.
This is really getting out of order now. Your insults are becoming more colourfully surreal and ridiculous by the day. There are no fascists on this site that I am aware of and, as has been explained to you several times now, socialists do not oppose particular reforms like the ACA but rather reformism – the advocacy of reforms as a strategy because it inescapably detracts from a revolutionary perspective . It has also been pointed that we agree that some reforms can benefit workers though, of course, such benefits can also be whittled away at a time of economic downturn. We are ourselves members of the working class so why should we want to suffer more along with our fellow workers?
Try to be a little less shrill and more honest and level headed in your criticism . Criticism is always welcomed but the kind of trollish comments you are coming out with lately makes it very difficult for anyone to take you seriously as a critic.
You’ve got to love the latest argument from these pseudo socialists
LT
At least we are advocating socialism ; you are not . And you have the perfect excuse for putting socialism perpetually on the back boiler (if you were ever interested in it in the first place which I doubt) – namely, rallying the lesser evil cause of Biden and his neoliberal cronies. That is because your Democratic Party will never realise the reformist expectations you place on it. Capitalism will grind your hopes into bitter disappointment. You wait and see.
If opposing a capitalist party like the Democrats make us “pseudo-socialist” what does supporting such a party make you?
This article is interesting for exposing the very flawed system of “democracy” in the US
When our companion World Socialist Party — the Socialist Party of Australia — stood for the seat of Melbourne Ports in the 1934 federal election, our candidate urged “people not to vote for him unless they understood socialism and its implications”.
He got 10% of the vote against a formidable campaigner Jack Holloway, head of the Melbourne Trades Hall Council, who had actually defeated the Prime Minister of Australia, Stanley Melbourne Bruce, at the previous election.
And during the election the “communist comrades” called us “social fascists”.
Bit like somebody here calling us “Trumpers” because we refuse to vote for the arch capitalist Biden (along with Trump)
There is no contradiction in what I said at all LT
I was not say dont vote at all under any circumstance. Rather I was specifying the circumstance when one should vote – when there is a socialist on the ballot
Even when there is no socialist on the ballot you can still vote by spoiling your ballot. Spoiling your ballot is still voting. It is registering a protest even if it does not count towards electing a candidate
LT
So called public ownership is a complete misnomer. The Public do not own a state owned industry any more than they own one in the hands of a private corporation. State property is the collective private property of a ruling class – the national capitalists
Engels made this very point over 140 years ago:
“The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. “
(Socialism: Utopian and Scientific)
You have yet to show me how not voting changes things. Please provide an example anywhere in the world. I’m waiting.
Nobody has suggested not voting. Rather what has been suggested is not voting for any capitalist politician he or she be a “lesser evil” or a “greater evil”. Voting for a capitalist politician means endorsing capitalism, And as long as you continue to endorse capitalism things wont change I afraid – not in any fundamental significant sense. A tiny parasite class will continue to enrich themselves at the expense of the great majority whose lives will be rendered insecure and relatively if not absolutely impoverished
The only way you can administer capitalism is in the interests of capital and against wage labour. Even a Bernie Sanders government, never mind a neoliberal like Biden, will in the end be forced to side with the capitalists against the working class. Whether or not he is happy with such a prospect is completely besides the point. The destiny of a Sanders government is not in his hands
So no – not voting wont change things . Only voting for a genuine alternative to capitalism and its wage system will do that. Until that happens on a sufficiently large enough scale nothing will change
Elated that Trump wasn’t re-elected. You still don’t get it. Your idealism is blinding you, trumper.
Dont be ridiculous LT. No one here even remotely supports Trump. But then we dont support any other capitalist politician either even if they may be marginally less obnoxious than Trump. Being the lesser evil is still no excuse for voting for Biden if that is what he is. Now that you have voted for Biden you are in no position to complain about what comes next. You got the government you campaigned for. You sided with Wall St in choosing their man. Yet another prole rallying to the cause of the neoliberal establishment
And then you have the nerve to call us “pseudo-socialists”. Hilarious
LT
You must be quite elated now. Your guy is now the 46th President of USA. Phew it took quite a while but you got there eventually.
Out to celebrate on the town tonight?
LT
I asked you to explain the <b>circumstances</b> under which you imagine, socialism will come to fruition. I did not ask you about the means by which this might happen. The circumstances and the means are two different things
I will vote for a genuine socialist candidate where there is one to vote for. Where there is not I will write “world socialism” across my ballot. A spoilt ballot contrary to myth is not a wasted ballot. The vote is important I agree but it is also important not to waste it on voting for a capitalist party as you advocate
The fact that you can say “There are a number of emerging socialist countries that have done that over the last century, and they have all done that incrementally.” tells me that there is vast gulf in our understanding of what constitute socialism.
There are no “socialist countries” and there never were any. Capitalism is global but it takes different forms/ You are using the term “socialism” in the Leninist sense to signify a form of “state capitalist monopoly” (Lenin’s words).
The SPGB uses the term socialism in its pre-Leninist or Marxist sense to means a stateless classless wageless and marketless alternative to capitalism. A synonym for communism. The SPGB is fundamentally opposed to Leninism, its obnoxious vanguardist outlook and the state capitalist agenda it has historically served
