American election
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mass spoiled ballots and abstention helped bring down the government. – young master
This is the kind of bile and lies we get from these fascists on here. The government of Argentina resigned in 2001 after thousands took to the streets of the capital to protest at the government’s handling of the country’s worsening economic crisis, protests that lasted for over a year. The collapse of the Argentinian government in 2001 had nothing to do with voting.
“Only the fascists want the ACA struck down. And there are many on this site. They want to see the working class suffer more than they already are. In other words, take what little they have and let them starve and die.”
Another example of absurd scaremongering (just to get people to vote for a reformist party and politician). It’s historically inaccurate too. Why would any government want that? A starving working class would not be able to produce the same amount of profits as a better fed one. Nor would it provide fit enough recruits to serve in the armed forces. In fact, historically this was why state health insurance schemes were introduced first in Germany under Bismarck and then in other countries.
Capitalism could not function properly with providing some health care coverage for workers, if only to get them back to producing profits again as quickly as possible as well as to make them more productive. The argument amongst politicians is not over whether there has to be some health care for workers but over how to pay for it.
The irony of this absurd claim is that the ACA was, if LT will recall, denounced by some of its opponents as “fascist”.
Only the fascists want the ACA struck down. And there are many on this site. They want to see the working class suffer more than they already are. In other words, take what little they have and let them starve and die. We need to prove our point, say these champagne socialists, that the greater evil is better than the lesser evil.
I think you should take your medications right away, because there are not fasicsts in this forum. If you check history you will see that while the Leninists were making alliances with the Nazis the Socialist Party was denouncing Fascism and Nazism and all its members did not participate in the capitalist war, we do not have blood in our hands.
Since 1903 the SPGB has rejected the concept of the vanguard party which is one of the component of fascism, and we rejected extreme nationalism which is another component of Fascisn/Nazism, and we rejected Lenin What is to be done? it was called the Russian Maquivelli or the political manipulation from the top, which is an idea taken from the Jacobin by Ferdinand Lasalle ( one of the oppositor of Marx ) and introduced in the Second International and supported by Karl Kaustky and Lenin borrowed the idea from them as a temporary measure for Russia. He was not planning to edit again, but his follower did,
We are not massochists and we do not want to inflict pain in ourselves or the working class, that is the way that conspiracy theory are created, the right wings created them and the left wings propagated them, that is how Trump won more than 70 millions peoples
They want to see the working class suffer more than they already are. In other words, take what little they have and let them starve and die.” – Trotsky
A starving working class would not be able to produce the same amount of profits as a better fed one. Nor would it provide fit enough recruits to serve in the armed forces. -ALB.
Whoosh … right over your head. You missed the point. Your ideas hurt the working class, my ideas help the working class. Continue living in your bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day.
https://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpais/1-19352-2003-04-26.html
It was called the blank vote, o voto blanco, voto bronca when more than 60% of the population of Argentina ( more than 10 millions of peoples ) did not vote or submitted blank ballots or pieces of paper, it was the last nail needed to remove the government of Argentina
The case of Puerto Rico was different the governor was removed by peoples protests
PS In Argentina Bronca means to be angry
“my ideas help the working class.”
Your ideas postpone socialism to the never-never land of the far off future in a far away land. How does that help?
You might deny it but the WSM is intent upon making a socialist society an immediacy.
While you procrastinate over promoting capitalist policies, the WSM puts forward the socialist proposition for our fellow-workers to debate and discuss. We try to determine the election issue and not let the ruling class determine the agenda.
Alan – I don’t understand why you are even talking about Biden. After all, if people listened to you and threw away their ballot, which is exactly what the fascists want, b/c a socialist isn’t on the ballot, Trump would be in power. Do you realize that there are people in this world who have put their life on the line just for the right to vote? And you childishly cast away your ballot? How juvenile can you be.
Leon Trotsky,
In Northern England your name would bring some kind of smile. It seems you are singling out Alan in your ‘trump, trump… trump” remarks. What answer do you want? Oh, confirmation that your candidate will bring change in over 500 years- if he lives that long…
… And you have not responded to other comrades- and their questions.
You would do well advocating for socialism and winning its idea: educating rather than dividing.
Take a time to read a comrade:
“the leftwingers such as the Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyists, Leninists and Castroists who are supporting Biden are supporting capitalism and the continuation of capitalism because he is the favourite candidate of Wall Street, the removable resources industries, the silicon valley industries, the firearms industries, the cannabis industries, the telecommunication industry and the big commercial banks, it is like the baseball game, they are placing new pitchers, new catchers and new members on the bases, but they are playing the same game under the same rules” (thanks Movimento Socialista)
Stop focusing on your pet hate, and engage in debate Leon…
“I’m still waiting for evidence that tearing up your ballot leads to change.”
LT, I think the academic approach might be less helpful.. but apt. So I have put a scenario together about oats.
Not academic in a way. but allegorical: oats!
Consider you can self reflect (academic term would be self reflexivity). Okay, it means the observer can experience and then really feel-think what is going on around them- they are observing based on the experience. Not just from a text, but really experience it.
Imagine there are no candidates that reflect your current experience. Okay, hold that. You vote for the one who makes life just that bit easier, only a little. You get two grains of oats more than the last government- great 2 more!
So you cast your vote. And for 4 years you get those oats.
Next time: your leader of 2 oats loses. And you get less oats for the next 4 years.
The incoming president says that some work for oats, and some get oats on welfare. So we will change that- no work: no oats.
So we fight over oats- and others make the profits from our dependence on porridge.
We all deserve elegant food, and that elegance should have no hierarchy- do Trots really need evidence!
Oats may appear on the commodity market- and compared against other prices (oats up/ oats down).
Bread the price of cake. So we eat what we can afford. The luxury of being a Trot- one crumb at a time.
Really loving this boiled leather. has a Stalin taste to it.
George Monbiot
“It might seem strange to note that the US was lucky to get Trump, but it was, in this respect: while he is power-mad and entirely lacking in conscience and empathy, he is also impetuous and incompetent, and failed to follow a clear programme. In other words, he was a hopeless wannabe dictator. He was also unfortunate: were it not for the pandemic, he might have won again. But he has blazed a trail for someone more effective: someone with Trump’s absence of moral constraint, but with a determined programme and a cold, strategic mind. If Biden fails to break the political consensus, in 2024 he could open the door to a competent autocrat.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/11/us-trump-biden-president-elect
LT,
Are you calling me a fascist? I’d like you to publicly clarify or retract that, please.
Anyway: yes, there were movements on the streets, there were also mass spoiled ballots, about 20% of the vote: the movement on the streets was backed up by action at the ballot box. I’d be happy with that as a road to establishing socialism.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1598855.stm
“The public’s anger at economic policy was demonstrated by the number of voters casting the so-called “voto bronca”, the vote of anger – with almost 30% doing so in the capital alone.
“Some voided ballots by leaving them blank, others by angrily writing in the names of cartoon characters like Bart Simpson and Mickey Mouse.
“While others wrote angry messages aimed at the politicians across their ballot slips, such as, “stop stealing” and “you’re all thieves!””
Whoosh … right over your head. You missed the point. Your ideas hurt the working class, my ideas help the working class. Continue living in your bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day.
LT
Sigh. Once again – socialists dont oppose reforms but reformism. Reformism indefinitely postpones socialism and keeps intact the very system that hurts the working class, which system can only be administered against the interests of the working class and in the interests of capital instead – namely capitalism. Or do you seriously think capitalism can be administered otherwise?
Since its pretty clear that you support the retention of capitalism by your entrenched opposition to revolutionary socialism and by your endorsement of the neoliberal pro-capitalist Democratic Party, doesn’t it strike you as being pretty rich of you to claim that the ideas of others here “hurt the working class.” That’s called projection.
In fact its YOUR ideas that hurt the working class, though you apparently can’t see this It is YOUR ideas that help to ensure workers remain forever submissive wage slaves. You want to condemn workers to endlessly struggle for the breadcrumbs that fall from capitalists’ table whereas genuine socialists want our fellow workers to take over the whole damn bakery
Perhaps you should follow your own advice – continue living in your own little bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day but please dont pretend that you have any intention of working to eliminate that reality that condemns these families to struggle under a system of wage slavery and perpetually hurts them.
Please dont pretend that you are some sort of socialist because that is what you are emphatically not.
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