American election
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It would be highly instructive to learn from you what precisely are the circumstances under which, you imagine, socialism will come to fruition in that case
Though the ballot box, as I’ve already stated a number of times. There are a number of emerging socialist countries that have done that over the last century, and they have all done that incrementally. Social change is a slow process precisely b/c people don’t vote, which plays into the hands of the ruling class. Do you not understand why the ruling class doesn’t want you to vote?
In fact, anyone telling another not to vote is not a socialist. Voting matters, contrary to what the ruling class and their running dogs tell you. GET OUT AND VOTE!
The proof is overwhelming: those countries with high voter turn out have made immeasurable progress in terms of social, economic and political justice. Those countries which have low voter turn-out are the exact opposite. Just take a look at Europe, where you find many socialist and communist parties. There you will find high voter turn out.
You still haven’t answered my question.
Is it all over? Will Trump stand in 2024? He legally can. Will Don Jnr stand as his proxy? Or Ivanka?
What LT has failed to acknowledge is that Trump garnered record votes for a defeated president. He not only retained his 2016 base but he expanded upon it. That is a harsh stark fact.
If Trump is a neo-fascist racist xenophobic bigot, what does that mean for practically half of America who nevertheless voted for him? What was the Trump message that resonated in the American working class? Why did the Republican Party change into a Trump cult?
Trump could so easily have won if he had handled the pandemic better and arranged for a generous stimulus package.
That is the real frightening aspect of this American election for me. A Biden presidency does not reflect any increased political awareness in our fellow-workers.
Arguing from the philosophy of idealism is proof of not understanding socialism. Marx’s work is philosophically based on the philosophy of materialism, which is rooted in relativism, not idealism. The idea of lessor or greater is an example of relativism, not idealism. Hence, if you are suggesting that you should not vote based on the idea of lesser (or greater) in the name of holding out for the “ideal”, then you are not a socialist. In other words, there is nothing “ideal”, everything is relative.
Bullshit LT
If workers dont understand or want socialism you cannot realise or bring about socialism. Period. The revolution by its very nature has to be a conscious socialist revolution . That is the ABC of Marxism. Promoting an understanding of the kind of society to replace capitalism has got nothing to do with idealism. You dont understand what idealism means
I note you continue to evade my point that voting for the “lesser evil” almost invariably prepares the ground for the “greater evil” to eventually come to power because the former will invariably fail to live up to the expectations of its followers
“In other words, there is nothing “ideal”, everything is relative.”
You are all over the place, Leon. One moment you are Leon Bernstein defending a gradualist policy to try to transform capitalism into socialism by incremental reforms. The next moment you are, as here, Leon Stalin using dialectics to try to justify contradictory policies. But either way you are not Leon Marx.
LT
I asked you to explain the <b>circumstances</b> under which you imagine, socialism will come to fruition. I did not ask you about the means by which this might happen. The circumstances and the means are two different things
I will vote for a genuine socialist candidate where there is one to vote for. Where there is not I will write “world socialism” across my ballot. A spoilt ballot contrary to myth is not a wasted ballot. The vote is important I agree but it is also important not to waste it on voting for a capitalist party as you advocate
The fact that you can say “There are a number of emerging socialist countries that have done that over the last century, and they have all done that incrementally.” tells me that there is vast gulf in our understanding of what constitute socialism.
There are no “socialist countries” and there never were any. Capitalism is global but it takes different forms/ You are using the term “socialism” in the Leninist sense to signify a form of “state capitalist monopoly” (Lenin’s words).
The SPGB uses the term socialism in its pre-Leninist or Marxist sense to means a stateless classless wageless and marketless alternative to capitalism. A synonym for communism. The SPGB is fundamentally opposed to Leninism, its obnoxious vanguardist outlook and the state capitalist agenda it has historically served
If you think there’s a singular line of action that is correct in all circumstances, then fine. (That’s idealism, but not the same kind of idealism that is the opposite of materialism as our confused Trotskyist thinks). I don’t think that, you have to leave possibilities open.
For people to be able to vote for socialism it requires a free political system, something which shouldn’t be taken for granted..
You are right, DJP, the situation will be different when there are more than a handful of socialists like today and when there are enough to elect a minority of socialist MPs.
As you know, our position is that such a minority should be prepared to vote for any measure, proposed by others, judged to be in the interest of workers under capitalism or to further the cause of socialism. Obviously in your hypothetical situation of a proposed law to outlaw socialist activity (unlikely as it would be if the stage had been reached where a minority of socialist MPs could be elected) the socialist MPs would vote against it. That’s a no-brainier.
But we are nowhere near there yet. What is urgent now is to keep putting over the case for socialism and nothing else as a means of hastening the emergence of a mass socialist consciousness. Somebody needs to do this and that’s why we exist. Of course in the meantime — or “the mean time”, as ex-member Stephen Coleman used to call it — workers have to do what they can to survive under capitalism and we say that the best way is via trade unions and similar non-party-political party organisations.
We are not “indifferentists”. After all, we are workers ourselves who have to survive as best we can under capitalism while it lasts.
LT
You must be quite elated now. Your guy is now the 46th President of USA. Phew it took quite a while but you got there eventually.
Out to celebrate on the town tonight?
Even Bernie Sanders knows that the lesser “evil” is better than the monster he is about to replace.
This election “was about whether or not we remain a country that believes in the Constitution, that believes in the rule of law and that believes in democracy,” the former Democratic presidential candidate said to CNN’s Anderson Cooper. “And thank God, democracy won out. So I just wish Joe and Kamala the very, very best in leading our country.” Bernie Sanders.
Wait for it … here it comes from the anarchists and closet Trumpers, that “Bernie is not a socialist” or “not the perfect/ideal guy”!!!! Hilarious. Meanwhile, they can never name the ideal guy either. Too funny.
You must be quite elated now. Your guy is now the 46th President of USA.
Elated that Trump wasn’t re-elected. You still don’t get it. Your idealism is blinding you, trumper.
“Meanwhile, they can never name the ideal guy either.”
You just don’t get it, do you? There is no ideal leader !
Leaders can‘t do anything for the workers. To establish socialism what workers require is socialist understanding and democratic self-organisation not to put their trust in some “good” leader to do something for them.
So you have replaced an uncouth loudmouth by a devout Roman Catholic. You think it will make a difference. Wait and see what another four years of capitalism will bring.
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