robbo203
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“The military rallies in Russia, China and North Korea look just as Scotsman describes. So they are Nazis too.”
Exactly Thomas. So to be consistent TS should be equally opposed to the “fascist-Nazi” regime of Putin otherwise he runs the risk being accused of being a Nazi sympathiser. It seems TS is one of those shallow and superficial commentators who seem to think the label on the bottle counts more than its contents. It is an intellectually lazy and dishonest way of proceeding. Just brand anyone who you dislike or disagree with as a Nazi so that the term nazi becomes more or less meaningless
“That’s nazis for you.”
The Ukrainian regime is an obnoxious authoritarian capitalist regime. But describing it as a nazi regime is unhelpful and inaccurate (despite the presence of a few Nazis there). It is just using the term “nazi” as a vague swearword.
By the same token, you might just as well call the obnoxious authoritarian capitalist regime in Russia a Nazi regime as well.
Or alternatively, “Why I no longer believe Jacob Rees-Mogg is a Marxist”
LOL
PGB, sure I can accept that there are some differences between various capitalist states – that some are more democratic in the bourgeois meaning of the term – although in the case of Ukraine and Russia there is precious little to choose between them. However even if Ukraine was a genuine democracy in this sense, I would still not be inclined to take sides in what is after all a fundamentally capitalist squabble. I do not endorse the lesser evil argument
“Yeah, Trump is/was a capitalist, Putin isn’t. Is your thinking so limited you cannot envisage a world leader who isn’t a businessman? The Forbes article is for credulous smooth brained chumps.”
___________________________________________________________________Nice attempt at evasion TS. I didn’t say Putin is a businessman in the sense of being involved in a business. I said he was a capitalist and a member of a tiny exploitative parasitic capitalist class. That has a somewhat different meaning not least because not all businessmen (particularly small businessmen) are capitalists. You don’t have to rely on just Forbes to confirm Putin’s staggering personal wealth. It is a universally acknowledged fact. Google it and confirm for yourself. Here in Spain he is a part owner of a massive villa complex somewhere in the Costa Del sol
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“I’ve never once apologised for Russian capitalism. Money where mouth is. Quote me doing so.”
______________________________________________________________________Bollocks. You are very clearly a craven supporter of the imperialist ambitions of the Russian capitalist state vis a vis the Ukranian capitalist state. Virtually every single one of your contributions on this thread is evidence of this! You side with Russian capitalism against its commercial rivals
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“Erm, he’s a capitalist and a communist? You sound a bit confused. Which is it?”
______________________________________________________________________Duh. Putin is about as much a “communist” as Trump, or Erdogan, or Orban or any other obnoxious right-wing capitalist politician. Where do you get such a dumb idea from that I somehow imagined Putin was a “communist”, eh?
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“Rubbish. Monetarily sovereign governments can literally print money into existence. Citizens need said money to pay their taxes. The government can employ all the now “unemployed” people and hey presto, the government is fully functioning. No capitalist enterprises necessary whatsoever. Read some modern monetary theory.”
______________________________________________________________________Perhaps with this fantasy economics that you seem to espouse you might care to explain why, in that case, do governments feel the need to levy taxes on businesses that, after all, provide them with the bulk of their revenue. From memory about 60-70 per cent of government revenue in the EU comes from taxation, the rest from government borrowing and other sources…
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“In the Soviet Union for example state enterprises were required by law to generate profits or could be penalised if they did not.”
Entirely different to capitalist profits which are for the capitalist or paying out in dividends to investors. Do read more.
____________________________________________________________________Yes, there were differences between soviet state capitalism and western capitalism as far as the disposal of the economic surplus – surplus value – was concerned. This is not denied. The soviet capitalist class exercised collective de facto class ownership of the means of production via their stranglehold on the state machine rather than through de jure individual ownership as in the west. However, this difference is secondary and superficial. Profit is profit – the monetary form of surplus value signifying the exploitation of workers via the system of wage labour. It doesn’t matter whether profit is generated via a western corporation or a soviet state capitalist enterprise. It represents the same thing. You are confusing the thing itself with the different mechanisms for appropriating profit which are historically contingent
“Putin is a member of the capitalist class”
Erm no, he’s not. He’s a mere politician.
______________________________________________________-Duh. Is your thinking so limited that you cannot envisage a person can be both things at the same time TS? Trump was a capitalist – even you would not be so dumb as to deny this – yet he ended up as President of the US
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“And you believe a Forbes article because you’re a Socialist Poser Guardian Bro. You imbibe western propaganda like it’s mother’s milk. The result? You become a credulous, smooth-brained dupe. The truth of Putin’s wealth is nowhere near as interesting.”
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Ad homs will get you nowhere TS. This only demonstrates the vacuity and weakness of your argument. And it is rich that an anti-socialist apologist for Russian capitalism like you should call me a socialist poser when you don’t even understand what is meant by socialism. But by all means, continue your bootlicking for your comrade Putin and pretending he is something other than an extraordinary wealthy and powerful member of an exploitative capitalist class if it makes you happy in your little bubble
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A so-called mixed economy IS a wholly capitalist economy – the mixture pertaining to a mixture of state and private CAPITAL.”Erm, wrong. Capitalism is all about profit. The state sector isn’t. Lol
________________________________________________________________LOL yourself TS. Your comments reveal your complete ignorance of Marxian economics. While it is true that part of the state sector does not in itself generate profit – it is unproductive in Marxian terms – it is nevertheless completely dependent on the profit-generating or productive sector of the capitalist economy for its financing. In the Soviet Union for example state enterprises were required by law to generate profits or could be penalised if they did not. A large chunk of these profits reverted to the central state via such mechanisms as turnover taxes – partly to finance the unproductive aspects of the Soviet state like its military machine. The point is that it was the profit-generating state enterprises that ultimately provided this source of finance. Over time an increasing proportion of the profits made by these state enterprises were allowed to be retained by them as the old state capitalist “command economy” model of running capitalism became increasingly unwieldy
“Putin is a politician not a businessman so already you sound like a frothing ignoramus. Is Russia wholly capitalist? No, it’s a mixed economy. More ignorance on display. Is he a scumbag? I don’t know what use the term is in a discussion such as this. He is human with qualities both good and bad like anyone else.”
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Putin is a member of the capitalist class, whether or not he directly engages in business dealings himself or has others do so on his behalf. By any standard, he is an extraordinary wealthy individual, According to some estimates his personal wealth is greater even than that of Musk’s
As for the claim that Russia not a wholly capitalist economy but a mixed economy, TS shows himself to be just as ignorant (and non-socialist) as the liberals he criticises. A so-called mixed economy IS a wholly capitalist economy – the mixture pertaining to a mixture of state and private CAPITAL. state capitalism is no less capitalist than private or free market capitalism. As Engels points that:
“The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head.! (Socialism Utopian and Scientific)
“Bijou calls the war between Ukraine and Russia a “gangster turf war”, likening it to the war between Al Capone and Bugs Moran, thus continuing the line of argument put here consistently by SP members: that there is no essential difference (no difference that matters) between Russia and Ukraine, thus wiping out any distinction between the invader and the invaded or between aggressor and the victim”
___________________________________________________________PGB, We are talking about the essential nature of these regimes. Both are corrupt, revolting, authoritarian, right-wing capitalist regimes administered in the interests of their respective oligarchies. No one even pretending to pay lip service to socialist ideas would touch other of these regimes with a bargepole, let alone legitimise the toxic nationalism that props both of them up
Quite simply, socialists don’t recognize or lend support to that preeminently capitalist institution – the nation-state. Differentiating and taking sides between capitalist states, defining one as the aggressor and the other as the victim is to unintentionally succumb to the ideological paradigm that upholds the nation-state as a preeminently capitalist institution and by extension capitalism itself
Even the most pacific and isolationist capitalist state is founded upon the aggression of class rule and its victims are the working class. We draw a veil over this every time we support one capitalist state against another in their belligerent commercial rivalries called war
“The world really is populated with goodies and baddies”
Does TS really believe that a scumbag sociopathic capitalist like Putin who heads a corrupt far-right authoritarian imperialist state like Russia is a “goody” worth supporting? True, there is not much to choose between this regime and the obnoxious Ukrainian regime but then the SPGB on principle does not support either side in this sordid capitalist squabble. TS does and in his craven support of the Russian capitalist state and its imperialist ambitions, he demonstrates just what an anti-socialist he truly is. True Scotsman = True nationalist = True apologist for capitalism!
An interesting slant on developments: “Putin and OPEC Join Forces to DESTROY the Liberal Globalist Order”. The basic thesis is that a new commodities-based world order with Putin and others at its head is coming into conflict with and threatening to bring down the current currency-based or financial world order controlled by a cabal of western states
Here’s the clip if you can access FB
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=616636793535088&extid=CL-UNK-UNK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK1C&ref=sharing
Relatedly there’s this link too:
One of the very few capitalist politicians one can regard with some respect. I’ve seen clips of her before. She stands head and shoulders above the warmongers on both sides, the apologists for the odious regimes of Putin or Zelinsky. A plague on both their houses! War is never in the interests of the working class
“I would posit that it is nowhere near the same. Ukraine on the other hand does share many similarities. I.e., all the Nazis.”
_________________________________________________________________TS There are full-blown Nazis around in Ukraine and in the regime. But it is absurd to say the regime itself is Nazi-run. That’s just stretching the term “Nazi” to the point of being meaningless. Ukraine is undoubtedly a corrupt authoritarian obnoxious regime but that is not the same thing as saying it is a nazi regime. Do you even understand what is meant by the term Nazi?
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““But while there are differences there are also very substantial commonalities- a point you seemingly willfully choose to ignore”And what would those be exactly? Do enlighten your audience.”
___________________________________________________________________I have already done so. Both regimes are obnoxious capitalist oligarchical regimes. Both are authoritarian and oppressive, Both are highly corrupt – amongst the worst in the world according to the transparency index. Need I go on?
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“What you have failed to mention is that Ukraine is a proxy for the US and EU. The core of world imperialism. Arguably the greatest purveyors of violence and tyranny in all of world history.”
____________________________________________________________________Russia is an imperialist power too. Does that mean we must support one imperialist power against another? How does that amount to combating imperialism? Apart from which, imperialism is only an outgrowth of capitalism and capitalism is global. It is capitalism that is the problem and imperialism is just an invitable symptom of the problem. You have no interest in getting rid of capitalism (on the contrary you endorse various state capitalist regimes). By extension, your actions do nothing to combat imperialism but on the contrary help to support a support a system whose very dynamic is imperialist
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“I am neither a nationalist or pro-capitalist. And nor am I a fanatic. That is what you and the Socialist Posers Guardian Bros are. You see, you don’t live in the real world. You live in the world of fantasy and bad ideas. In the real world the imperialist core’s actions cause untold misery and grief to targeted nations whether capitalist, socialist or more likely, a mix of both. That is why I support Russia. It’s why I support Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran and China to name but a few of the nations targeted by the empire and its lackeys.”
___________________________________________________________________LOL TS you talking about living in the real world but you don’t even grasp the obvious fact that the kind of anti-socialist and pro-capitalist ideas you espouse give succour to the various obnoxious capitalist regimes you refer to. You don’t see this because you don’t understand what socialism is about – at all. Do you seriously imagine that the actions of an imperialist power like Russia does not also cause untold misery and grief to a targeted nation like Ukraine? Russia may not be the world’s most powerful imperialist power but that does make its military adventurism any the less repugnant. Or perhaps you dont see anything repugnant about Russian missiles killing civilians or Russian soldiers executing civilians. As for your jibe about the SPGB, to the contrary, I believe the SPGB (along with a few others) has taken the ONLY realistic position one can take in this whole sordid business by declaring that not a drop of working-class blood is worth shedding to perpetuate this senseless carnage
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“And there we have it. This is the reason for your fanaticism. It makes you feel morally superior. You trash all existing and ever existing socialism. You are not socialists. You are the enemy of socialists. Your propaganda has not and never will make purchase in the working class. If they ever listened to your propaganda they’d be horrified by the idea of socialism as you present it and would become useless, feckless liberals. Which is what SPGB members actually are. Liberals.”
___________________________________________________________________Again LOL LOL LOL TS, You talk of “all-existing socialisms” thereby demonstrating that you understand nothing of socialism and indeed exhibit the same misunderstanding of socialism as the liberals you claim to oppose have in equating it with the various state capitalist regimes you support. Liberals by the way tend on the whole to support Ukraine in this war. The SPGB by contrast adamantly refuses to take sides in supporting one capitalist power against another. Get your facts straight
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“I will never be ashamed of supporting a righteous victim of imperialist aggression.”
____________________________________________________________________Tell that to a Ukrainian family that has just witnessed its home being demolished by a missile launched by the imperialist forces of the Russian military
It is extremely difficult to predict what the outcome of the war will be but if things get much worse for the Russian military – and, in particular, if Ukraine retakes Crimea – it’s hard to see how Putin could hang on to power. In the meanwhile all power to our fellow workers, Russian and Ukrainian, alike who refuse to be drawn into this sordid capitalist squabble or succumb to that mental disease called nationalism
A plague on both their houses and their respective nationalist camp followers.”
Right, because there’s no difference between a state run by literal Nazis, and any other state. They’re exactly the same don’t you know? So Hitler’s Germany and Putin’s Russia – exactly the same.
_____________________________________________________________________Of course there are differences between different capitalist states, TS. Hitler’s Germany is not exactly the same as Putin’s Russia. But while there are differences there are also very substantial commonalities- a point you seemingly willfully choose to ignore
Whether Ukraine is a state “run by literal Nazi” is a moot point. There may be literal Nazis in the regime but that is not the same thing as saying the regime is run by Nazis. In any event, what cannot be doubted is that Ukraine is a thoroughly obnoxious authoritarian and corrupt capitalist regime run in the interests of its oligarchic capitalist class. But what is equally not in doubt is that Russia too is a thoroughly obnoxious authoritarian and corrupt capitalist regime run in the interests of its oligarchic capitalist class
You, TS, as a nationalist and pro-capitalist opponent of socialism choose to side with one of these obnoxious capitalist regimes against the other. Protest all you like that the obnoxious capitalist regime you support – Putin’s Russia – is somehow morally superior in some way to the obnoxious capitalist regime you oppose – Zelinsky’s Ukraine – but that does not get around the fact that what you are apologising for is precisely the disgusting capitalist regime of Putin. You should be ashamed of yourself!
“More than 70,000 Russians have volunteered for the armed forces since September 21st. That’s more than Australia’s total military manpower. The poor Ukrainian Nazis, they don’t stand a chance”.
______________________________________________It looks like the military balance is shifting decisively in favour of the authoritarian oligarchic regime in Ukraine and away from the authoritarian oligarchic regime in Russia. A plague on both their houses and their respective nationalist camp followers. As ever, the real losers in this sordid little capitalist squabble over territory, resources, and spheres of influence are the workers on both “sides” of this conflict.
