robbo203
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The ICT has put out a statement on the situation in Israel/Gaza. What it says is not dissimilar to what the SPGB would say
For example
“In the same way, anyone who supports only Palestinian workers and ignores the Israeli working class, jumps from the frying pan into the fire. They think that the former clashing with the latter is not important because the latter is just a slave to the ultranationalist policy of its government. But the Palestinian working class, in its turn, is under the thumb of a bunch of capitalists who have no hesitation about siding with the imperialism of the ayatollahs: one of the most vicious set of rulers when dealing with internal opposition. Thus both sets of workers are trapped in the logic of capitalism, nationalism, and imperialism, where war is the only solution and not liberation from wage slavery.”
Not a bad article. Makes some valid points, I think. Gawd knows what the future holds, mind you…
It seems like the momentum to curtail free speech is gathering pace
I love the bit about “disinformation”. My intray is literally bursting with rancid pro-Ukraine articles pumping out obvious fake news all the time. But will our “freedom-loving” authorities do anything about that? You bet they won’t
Then there is this from Braverman the Minister for Stamping Out Dissent
People are getting fired from their jobs or are being publicly ridiculed for even daring to criticise the Israeli state on such transparently dishonest grounds that this is anti-Semitic. “1984” is not so much behind us as looming ahead
“No essential difference then to the approach taken by religious zealots, except that the “hereafter” promised in this case is socialism and not heaven.”
_____________________________________When someone starts making these sorts of comments you just know they have run out of useful arguments or else have little to no understanding of what the socialist position on the matter is.
Of course, we don’t urge Palestinian workers to “turn the other cheek” in the face of all the provocations they face. On what grounds did Lizzie45 dream this up? However, just as important as having a view on what we think workers should do is having a view on what we think workers should NOT do.
Firstly, whatever tactical victory Hamas believes it has achieved in catching the Israeli military off guard, the slaughter of hundreds of Israeli citizens has whipped up such a bloodlust, such a thirst for revenge, that you can be certain that the situation facing Palestinian workers, bad as it is now, is going to get much worse. Hamas has done them no favours at all.
Secondly, we vigorously oppose nationalism and anything to do with the idea of creating another capitalist state. I have been arguing with a Trot on another forum who maintains that Palestinian workers should be allowed to own their own state. But they would no more own that state than Israeli workers own the Israeli state. The state is an instrument that allows a ruling class to rule. In advocating for a state, workers are advocating for their own servitude and submission to this state.
I don’t know if Lizzie45 is a Trot but she certainly sounds like one. There is not much that socialist-minded Palestinian workers can do in the face of all this whipped-up hysteria and nationalist bloodlust but, if it were possible, one of the things they could do is forge links with like-minded Israeli workers. There are people in Israel who have a lot of sympathy for the people in Gaza and the West Bank. Unfortunately, one of the outcomes of the Hamas atrocity is that the voices of these people are likely to be dimmed if not silenced for the time being
It looks like things are going to get worse judging by comments like this:
“And it is these scenes which are galvanising resolve here in Israel. Rabbi David Fendel, who is delivering aid to Michel, says there can be no peace now. “We have to keep bombing until they can’t lift their heads,” he adds.”
and
“To pile on further pressure, Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant also declared a “total siege” on the strip, an act human rights groups said would amount to collective punishment and may violate international law. There are concerns a total blockade will spark a devastating humanitarian catastrophe for the more than two million people who live in the strip. Almost half of them are children.
“No power, no food, no gas, everything is closed,” Gallant said. “We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly”
The hypocrisy of the Israeli regime stinks but then both sides have got blood on their hands. Both sides are equally deluded in thinking that an escalation of the violence is the solution. The only thing that might restrain the Israeli regime from carrying out what Gallant suggests it does is the fact that Hamas has some 130 “hostages”, as I understand it, who they have threatened to callously execute one by one if things get worse for Gaza – that and maybe pressure from the EU and even the US who might be concerned about the bad image and the implications for relations with the Arab countries. But that hasn’t yet stopped Israel from expressing its bloodlust by bombing Gaza which it has just done
What a goddamn awful situation this all is! The disease of nationalism seems to have driven people crazy and turned them into raving lunatics
“This double standard perfectly illustrates the mainstream media’s approach on how to distort the crisis. First, twist the actual reports, with one-sided language and biased framing. But second, and arguably more importantly; ignore any of the history of Israel/Palestine, so that the attack from Gaza looks like an inexplicable, unprovoked spasm of violence and Jew-hatred.”
______________________________
True enough but there are double standards on both sides of the debate. The cold-blooded murder of 260 young partygoers at the Supernova festival in Southern Israel can no more be justified or rationalised away than the cold-blooded murder of hundreds of people in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli military. BOTH spring from the same sociopathic mindset that the death cult of nationalism fosters. BOTH need to be unequivocally condemned for the disgusting vile acts they are.
Anyone who imagines that committing such acts is going to advance their cause by one iota is deluded in the extreme. All it has done is to stoke up the hatred both sides feel for each other and strengthen the divisions of nationalism. Sadly, the outcome is going to be yet more deaths more pain, and more misery…
“It’s so easy to adopt a smug attitude when not actually experiencing what it’s like having to constantly live under a repressive regime.”
………………………..
It’s so easy to adopt a smug attitude in condemning those who argue that tit-for-tat violence is no way to combat a repressive regime. On the contrary, the chances are, in this instance, that it is going to provoke even more repression, more violence, more deaths, and even possibly a full-scale war with Iran. Is that what you want? Seriously? If not then instead of just pontificating, how about you tell us how you imagine this horrible situation can be resolved because I cannot see more violence being the answer at all.
I appreciate that I do not live under what you call a repressive regime (and might feel differently if I did) but actually sometimes that gives you a little more space to see things just a little more objectively…
With every passing week, it seems like the sick death cult of nationalism is deepening and strengthening its hold on the minds of people everywhere. It doesn’t bode well for the future. As if the war in Ukraine, the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, the situation in North Africa, and the standoff over Taiwan were not enough – now we have the latest upsurge in violence in the Middle East
The headline from the Time of Israel newspaper screams:
“Iranian president backs assault on Israel, holds talks with Gaza terror leaders”
So what now? Can we expect another full-scale war to flare up in the Middle East as the Israeli state seeks violent retribution for what has happened? There is no way this tit-for-tat spiral of violence can be brought to an end except by coming to finally realise that nationalism is a mental disease that must be stopped in its tracks and uprooted once and for all if humanity is going to have any kind of future worth living. Hamas´ murderous actions are no more justified than the actions of the Israeli apartheid state and it is pointless and counterproductive to take sides in this utterly tragic and depressing state of affairs. That way only despair lies ahead
I see that tensions are rising at the moment between Kosovo and Serbia and there is talk of another war breaking out with the US and EU siding with Kosovo in urging the Serbian regime to scale down its military threat.
Kosovo, originally under Serbian control unilaterally declared its independence in 2008 and was supported by the West in that. Remind me again – what is the essential difference between Kosovo vis-a-vis Serbia and Donbas vis-a-vis Ukraine?
It all goes to show once again the stupidity, irrationality, and utter hypocrisy of all nationalist thinking and the warmongering nationalists
A long article on how the Western narrative on what is happening in Ukraine has been steadily losing credibility. War fatigue is setting in, to the frustration of the warmongers, and public opinion has moved towards stopping further military aid to the Zelensky regime
Here´s something posted by someone from the Ex Militant tendency on one of the debate forums I am on
I agree completely with the suggestion offered. Let’s do it
Bad news for the warmongers – at least those on the side of NATO and its puppet state – loved by patriotic liberals everywhere
Hopefully, the same development will be occurring in Russia and its backer regimes. Then finally we can look to an end to this stupid pointless barbaric war
The military-industrial complex and Ukraine
The Mad Propaganda Push To Normalize War Profiteering In Ukraine
“That statement, perhaps unwittingly, has devastating ramifications for the socialist revolution. The SPGB talks about a majority needing to understand and implement it. But if a figure of 99% or even 82% is required to bring it about and avoid a serious minority problem then you really are residing in the realms of cloud cuckoo land.”
………………………………….I don’t think so at all. Ideas don’t spread in the fashion you think you do. If 82% of the population were 100% committed to socialism that would suggest that most of the remaining 18% would be at least sympathetic to socialism. Why should that be a problem? It is inconceivable that the growth of the socialist movement would not also at the same time, alter the general social climate of opinion in a direction that favoured its further growth.
By the time we numbered even 25% of the population, I suggest that at least a further 50% would probably be “semi-socialist” in outlook. Certainly, it would be virtually impossible for capitalist governments by then to get away with waging stupid wars like the one currently being waged in Ukraine. By then there would already be a sea change in society´s value system which governments have to adapt to maintain legitimacy
One of the things that strikes me about this whole sordid business of the Ukraine war is the utter hypocrisy of the protagonists (on both sides mind you)
Here´s a video clip of Lavrov pointing out the hypocrisy of the US regime recognizing the right of Israel to annex the Golan Heights that previously belonged to Syria. on the grounds that was in Israeli national security interests to do so. Yet Blinken the US spokesman does not extend the same right to Russia to annex Crimea for precisely the same reasons.
Of course, this comparison could backfire on Lavrov because it implies a parallel between Russia’s and Israel´s situation and thereby justifies Israel´s takeover of the Golan Heights in a roundabout way. Still, it is instructive in showing the double standards of the capitalist warmongers. When it suits them international law will be set aside and conveniently forgotten
