[robbo203]

Young Master Smeet wrote:

Robin,the state, in the form of communication nodes; command and control points; files, records, archives, procedures and the like, is a very real Thing. Oh, and guns.  Lots of guns.   I for one am allergic to dying of typhoid on the morning after the revolution.Capitalism has a past record of continuing in the face of it's apparent imminent abolition: the historic response has been to fight.  Just as the Southern Slave owners, faced with their imminent doom chose one of the bloodiest wars in history as an option.

 YMS A state entails guns – yes certainly – and all the other stuff you mention.  But guns dont necessarily entail a state – anymore than a peice of machinery necessarily entails "capital".  The "state" and "capital" are only phenomena that happen under certain socio-economic conditions i.e. the state implies the existence of class relations.  No classes means no state  So guns can indeed exist outside the framework of a statist (class-based)  society.  That said, I have no doubt that, come a socialist society, swords will very rapidly be turned into plouhshares and AK47s into laptops or whatever. Unlike some on the Left  with  their hopelessly romantic and deparately dangeorus talk of barricades and armed revolt, I take the view that the growth of socialist movement will in fact, if anything, make for  a fundamentally pacifying effect on society as democratic socialist values seep into every nook and cranny, incrementally transforming the general social outlook.  States will be increasingly restrained and held captive by an electorate that, more and more, is not going to stand for war as a means of revolving conflict. A sifting process will commence that  will expel those more brutal elements of capitalist polity – like fascism – to the political margins or beyond – extinction.   Two sets of diametrically opposed ideas and values cannot flourish in the same soil.  Interpersonal relations too are going to be affected. Less and less will we see as others as simply a means to our own self interested ends.  What, for want of a better term, I call a "proletarian morality" (Engels) will take root and spread So I would fundamentally question your claim that Capitalism's historic response in the face of its "apparent eminent abolition" has been to fight .  We  have never ever been in this situation.  Not even remotely.  So the radically pacifying effect of a growing global socialist movement on capitalism has never had th opportunity to be tested or put into effect. If the state seriously wanted to crush the enemies of capitalism, NOW would be the time to do it when its enemies are weak and few in number.  When the writing is on the wall for capitalism it will be far too late . More to the point,  the very inclination to want to do so would have been selected out through a process of ideological evolution as a waning dominant ideology struggles to hegemonically maintain it grip and finds itself having to adapt to accommodate the changing currents of social opinion. One final thought. Yes the state is a "very real thing".  But only in the Durkhiemian sense of a "social fact". However, there is a very real danger of transferring a mode of  looking at the world pertaining the physical sciences to the social sciences. I'm talking about the problem of "reflexivity "as it is called.  We are part of the very thing we are "observing". It is impossible to step outside society abd "scientifically" examine it from an external standpoint as one might a rock or a plant or aome chemical reaction.  Indeed, at a more fundamental level of quantum physics with a phenomenom like the "observer effect", some  might even question that last claim. Point is that the state is rather like a kind of collective conspiracy or motivating myth.   We invest it with a normative "reality".  We develop a set of expectations around, and in relation to,  this "thing" we call a state – which expectations coercively influence, or reinforce compliance, in others. That is what a social institution is – a routinised regularised pattern of rule-dominated behaviour and the state is a prime example of a social institition. This to me is the strongest argument of all for "capturing" the state .  It affords the opportunity for a kind of cathartic symbolic switchdover from  one set of social rules to another  Rather like a ballon which we catch in our hands and then proceed to prick with a pin, the state instantly implodes.  And all that hot air generated by a generations of capitalist politicians dissipates safely into the atmospehere.  Or on second thoughts maybe we could recycle all that hot air even if it it does not count as a very clean energy source. Didn't Willaim Morris suggest in News from Nowhere turning the Houses of Parliament into a gassworks?    

[robbo203]

Young Master Smeet wrote:

I must be missing something here.1) The socialist party achieves political majority within the working class.2) The working class achieves political power.3) The organised working class, using political power, works to abolish capitalism.Now, if only for a few days, hours or nano-seconds, the political preponderance of the working class will exist within capitalism.Now, we can also envision a situation where the working class could take control of the state, but be unable to abolish capitalism (the vexed question of the local majority, or the technical majority).  Whilst it would ultimately have to govern within the limits of the interest of capital, such local/technial majorities could work to keep naked state power out of the direct hands of the agents of capital.For example, in the UK, I'd imagine any "socialist" administration that, say, won a parliamentary majority with 25% of th vote to do such things as (at least have referendums proposing to) abolish the Monarchy, House of Lordsa and Prime Minister and introduce annual Parliaments, elected office for important positions (Chief Exec of the NHS, BBC, etc.), etc.

 If anything, I would have thought it would be the other way round.  Even before the capture of political power by a socialist majority  capitalism would surely be struggling to maintain its own existence.  If the "expectation of profit " is  what motivates production under capitalism then what becomes of that when the expectation of capitalism's imminent demise becomes increasingly insistent and pervasive? How, for instance, do you persuade investors to invest when they are not going to receive a return should  socialism be just around the corner?I think this whole idea of a socialist majority  activily "using" the state in some positive sense -to become , as it were, a "socialist state"  albeit a very provisional and temporary one – in order to abolish capitalism  is throughly misleading. Better to think of  the capture of political power by a socialist majority as being tantamout to the immeidate abolition of the capitalism and ipso facto the immediate dissolution of  the state as an expression or institutional tool of class society. The state is not a " thing" and we should avoid thinking of it in such reified terms.  It is a  social institution and social institutions are "established  patterns of rule-governed behavior.".The whole point about the capture of political behaviour is surely its symbolic import.  It marks a change in the basic rules of the social game , expressing the wish of a significant majority.  With that wish having been expressed politically, to talk of capitalism continuing  to somehow linger on, dying a slow death,  seems to me a little nonsensical.  How could it possibly survive within a social climate governed by the expectation of such a socialist majority? Its like agreeing to change over to a game of chess while allowing  some aspects of the game of draughts  you had  just decided to finish to nevertheless remain. We breathe life into the state by acquiescing in it.   Take away that acquiescence  and it will simply evaporate. If a recalcitrant minority seeks to forcibly  resist the new social order , their resistance will be met, not by the state, but by the new society itself and by whatever methods it decides to use in its own defence

[robbo203]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

I think what i was describing  the process where the State is transformed into the administration of things , as you say,  rather than dwell upon the DOTP which we all seem to agree is a flawed concept so yes i did not use the classic definition in political left circles except the general understanding to mean the democratic will of the people, and since the majority of people are members of the working class, it is class democracy until indeed capitalist relations are made history.The transformation of the State into organs of social democracy i think is a more worthwhile debate since it is the more appropriate discussion on how to make socialsm practicable and viable than debating the DOTP, a throwaway aside from a 19th century writer who picked it up from another earlier writer but like another vague and seldom used  phrase "permanent revolution" it is seized upon for polemic purposes and distracts.

 I understand the point you are making, Alan, but I would strongly caution against making use of the concept of the DOTP in any way shape or form- -even as code for  the mere capture of political power when it is pretty much understood to be  a state of affairs that emerges after the capture of political power by the working class .  Indeed there are even some who argue, from a vanguardist perspective, that only a minority of the working class need be socialists in order for the working class to capture power – a problermatic notion which I think automatically invites substitutionisim (the replacement of the class by the Party/vanguard as the governing organ) To be honest, Im quite surprised, judging by the reponses on this thread , by  the causalness of the SPGB's attitude towards the whole question of the DOTP.  I would have thought, if anything, given its basic theoretical orientration, it would be robustly critical of the idea (and perhaps even produce a pamphlet on the subject!) .  The whole dogma of the DOTP has evolved into something far more than a throwaway aisde from a 19th century  writer.  It has become a central organising principle of the so called revolutionary left and I maintain it is a principle that gives warrant to  their underlying reformism.  After all,  the logic of DOTP, on the face of it , would suggests that capitalism can indeed be run in the interests of the workers who can indeed dictate terms to the capitalists .  And there can be no doubt that under the DOTP it is capitalism that will prevail since by definition the proletariat is the exploited class in capitalism and thus presupposes capitalism. That apart , there is still the question of how a socialist society might come about in  spatial terms which has not really been touched on in this thread. I think we can safely assume a degree of unnevenness in the growth of socialist consciopsuness that would rule out the synchronous implementation of socialism everywhere.  What does that mean for  those parts of the world that attain a significant socialist majority first?The Left's reponse is that they should hold fire and set up a DOTP ands continue with capitalism.  I think thats a ridiculous notion.  A majority in one part of the world presupposes a significant minority of socialists everywhere else and a radically transformed social environment – both locally and globally – that would provide the context in which those parts of the world where a majority had been first attained  can go ahead and establish a socialist society.The really interesting questions still remain to be discussed such as what might be the form in which an expanding socialist part of the world relates to the residual capitalist states.  The point is that these kinds of issues should not be dissmised as "merely speculative", something that can be left to a future socialist movement to deal with.  Like the question of whether or not a socialist society would be centrally planned, they are of an inherently  different nature to issues such as whether or not a socialist society will continue with nuclear power.  That latter issue is indeed a matter of speculation but not what we are talking about hereWhat we are talking here is an organic aspect of the socialist case, a logical deduction from what  will almost certainly be the case – the relatively unneven spatial growth of the socialist movement.  It is thus an issue that cannot be avoided or sidelined and requires therefore some kind of theoretical position be developed in relation to this matter if  the case for socialism is to come across as more plausible

[robbo203]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

"…The socialist community would send delegates to parliament only to prevent it from being used against the organisation of production for use and free access… " My understanding is that it may not be simply a preventative measure as you suggest but in some cases will be used against a recalcitrant minority which may well endeavour to use violence against the will of the people. Our control of the State and with it the command of the armed forces may be wielded proactively rather than the passive role reflected in the section i quoted. We cannot also overlook the situation that some warlord will not yield and he and his supporters will have to be subdued forcibly. So the blue helmets may not be immediately redundant. (as an aside –  i do not actually foresee the military being disbanded but they also being adapted to a new role…all that testosterone can be channeled into a new type of a Peace Corps.  If they can wage war on the opposite side of the world they can be deployed in the wildernesses and jungles to develop the infrastructure) We will see a process within the State machine taking place. Those who are going to strip away its anti-social elements and enhance its social importance, i'm meaning all the ministries such as health an environment and departments of statistics., etc etc. Not an overnight process but importantly not one that will await the day after the revolution either. I remember how the unions during the 70 developed the Lucas Aerospace project where they reappraised what they did and how it could switch from the arms business to constructive industry. The DOTP may well be the process of dotting the i and crossing the t to this transformation of the economy as the resources are made available. 

 The flaw in this argument is that you are overlooking what the DOTP actually means.  It means the continued existence of a proletariat – you know, the wage slaves who sell their labour power to an employer who exploits them in return .   Do you propose that the process of "stripping away" all the anti social aspects of the state machine should be carried out while a majority continue to remain wage slaves – proletarians – and therefore under an ongoing system of capitalist relations of production which is what by definition a DOTP would be managing? In short, is what you suggest possible while capitalism still exists albeit DOTP style capitalism The problem, I think, is  that you are  confusing the state qua state with the administrative hardware  or bureaucracy we associate with the state.  Its the same with the argument you invoke that you need a "state" to protect the community against the odd warlord cum recalcitrant minority.  But this is confusing,  A state is an instrument of class rule. If socialism has been esablished there are no classes and therefore no state.  So it would not be the state that would be called upon to defend the community  but rather non-state bodies set up by the community for that purpose if so required. This is not a question of splitting hairs.  It is vital to an understanding of what a state actually is In the absence of a state – that is, in the absence of classes in  socialism –  there might very well still be means of defence needed against the odd psychotic warlord of course.  But these means of defence – weapons of various sorts – do not signify the existence of the state in themselves.  Anymore than a peice of machinery is "capital".  It is only capital under specific socio-economic circumstancess i.e capitalism. So by the same token means of defences only serve as the intrument of a state when a state exists,  When it does not exist the means of defence are still there to be used by the community if the need arises Logically,  it makes no more sense to talk of the state "withering away" than it does of getting rid of the money system one pound note at a time. It is the symbolism of the state and of the process of capturing the state that we should be looking  at – the need to draw a clear line between the society you have departed and tthe society you have come to embrace. The only sensible and coherent inference we can draw from that is that the state will be immediately abolished in the eyes of everyone along with the class relations of production that underpin the state.

[robbo203]

Vin Maratty wrote:

Dictatorsip of the proletariat means the dictariship of the majority instead of the few. What does it matter if it has been mis interpreted and twisted? So has 'socialism'.  The capitalist media  have good reason to hate our words. Let them tremble at the socialist revolution we have nothing to lose…

 The proletariat is certainly the majority but it does not follow from that that the dictatorship of the proletariat  means the dictatorship of the majority.  Again, you are missing the point completely. How can the proletariat exercise a "dictatorship" at all in any meaningful sense of the term when the proletariat by definition is the subject class in capitalism, the exploited class in capitalism?.  How can the exploited "dictate" terms to those who exploit them? It makes no sense.  It is only by overthrowing their status as the exploited class that the majority can "dictate". Thats blindingly obvious. The confusion still seems to loe with equating the capture of political power with the concept of the DOTP itself.   I repeat once again: they are not the same thing.  You can quite easily advocate the capture of political power by the working  class but completely reject the DOTP as I do.   The DOTP is something that is supposed to be  installed AFTER the capture of political power. The idea is that the working class having captured the state, continues to exist as a working class,  allegedly in control of the state, until such time as  DOTPs have been set up everywhere. Then and only then, according to the theory, is it possible to implement socialism – when every country in the world has set up a DOTP. The problem is that the DOTP by default will be administering capitalism in the meantime and, as we all know,  capitalism can only be run in the interests of capital. So inevitably the DOTP will have to operate a system that operates against the very working class it claims to represent. This is a recipe for class betrayal.  It would also kill any prospect of establishing a socialist society Thats why I say –  to hell with DOTP!  No revolutionary socialist should touch the idea with a bargepole.  To advocate the DOTP is tantamount to, say,  supporting  the early Labour Party which claimed to want to effect a fundamental redistribution of wealth and power in favour of the working class. And we all know what became of the Party of Tony Bliar and Ed Milliband

Vin Maratty wrote:

I cannot envisage uneven development but if there was a time lag, a community wanting socialism would not take the means of production into state ownership and wait for the rest of the world catch up.

 I agree with the latter part of this sentence.  But what you are doing here is rejecting the very grounds on which the advocates of  the DOTP advocate the DOTP!  It is precisely becuause they assert the need for the rest of the world to "catch up" that they advoicate a DOTPI think there is very likely to be a degree of uneven development but not much.  But still enough to rule out the possiblity of synchronous socialist revolutions across the globe 

Vin Maratty wrote:

I still think you are confusing Marx’s dictatorship of the proletariat with Lenin and Stalin’s dictatorship over the proletariat.Property is not transferred to the state. it is taken by the community to be used in its interests

Hmm. I think you are on somewhat shaky grounds here if you are trying invoke Marx in supportThe Communist Manifesto which he co-authored states quite clearly: The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.   This is what Marx's DOTP would look like – a system of state-run capitalism.  Lets not have any delusions about that.  True,  Marx and Engels equated it with a "democratic republic" and the Soviet Union was very far from being a democratic republic but capitalism under Marx's version of the DOTP would still amount to the same thing in practice, fundamentally speaking, as Lenin's or Stalin's version –  namely a dictatorship of capital over wage labour (since capitalism can only be run in the interests of capital). The difference would be that, with Marx, workers would be exploited under a democratically run DOTP whereas with Lenin and Stalin,  even the possiblity of wage slaves choosing their own masters was denied them

[robbo203]

ALB wrote:

Here's the ICC's crackpot solution to the problem raised by Robbo — world-wide civil war.And here's the CWO's admission that what would exist in the areas under the control of the "workers state" (with or without inverted commas) would be capitalist:

Quote:

A so-called ‘workers’ state’ or the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ is, in the first instance, a political category. Nevertheless, a ‘workers’ state’ will take measures for the improvement of the conditions of life of the working class (reduction in the working-day, free access to the health and education system, etc) and try to direct production for the needs of society. But these measures are, in any case, milestones for a socialist future (. . . ) As long as capitalist commodity production in the rest of the world continues to exist, the diktat of the law of value holds (p.38).

Socialists shouldn't have too much difficulty in refuting these ideas on the various forums where and when they appear. I think Robbo's point is that the last sentence above isn't necessarily true. One major reason why the CWO think it is is that they don't envisage a majority of the population in the areas where capitalist rule has been overthrown being or having to be socialist-minded and so can't think of any means of dealing with it other than the old capitalist forms plus a few reformist "milestones". If, on the other hand, there was a socialist majority there then the population could understand and adopt other measures which did not reflect "the diktat of the law of value", certainly production directly for use and the direct distribution of products for use without money (even if not full free access).

 The CWO quote above  nicely illustrates the point that Ive long argued about the concept of the DOTP – that it feeds into and helps to rationalise or underwrite a Left reformist approach to politics.  I dont think its enough to dismiss the concept simply on the grounds that it is "outdated" or that the wording is potentially misleading. What has to be acknowleged also is that the concept itself – quite apart from being inherently illogical – is intrinsically toxic to the interests of the working class inasmuch as capitalism whether under a DOTP or any other form of governance, cannot possibly be administered in the interests of the class it needs  to economically exploit. The other point  the CWO make about parts of the word, where a socialist majority had first taken power,  being unable to flout the "law of value"" until such time as the entire world  had been been covered in DOTPs, rather undermines its  claims as to what a DOTP is capable of achieving given that a DOTP would then likewise be subject to the selfsame law of value.  By implication this means that a DOTP would be essentially no different from any (other) form of  capitalist regime likewise subject to the law of value. It would seem the CWO have rather shot themselves in the foot with this particular argument!  propsect of the DO 

[robbo203]

Vin Maratty wrote:

 No I never said that. Is there no such thing as revolution ? Only capitalism or socialism?If you reject the 'dictatorship of the proletariate' (which I agree is not a helpful term nowadays) are you also rejecting the need to take control of the state?

 Of course not.  The DOTP is something that is supposed to be installed AFTER the working class is said to have "taken control of the state".  Except, of course, that I would not say the working class  had carried out a revolution yet in that case.  If the working class or proletariat still exists  (and a DOTP means it does still exist) then clearly capitalism still exists and a fundamental change in the  very basis of society – what is meant by a "revolution" – would be something that has yet to be accomplished

[robbo203]

Vin Maratty wrote:

robbo203 wrote:

 I think it is the view of the SPGB – it is certainly mine – that immediately upon taking control of the state the organised working class must abolish the state 

 And therin lies the problem. You allude to a specific conference decision do you not? Without that resolution you could not have presented such an interpretation of the SPGB's position. I never saw the point in that  resolution and I still don't. If an organised working class is able to immediately abolish the state then that's fine but if it needs the state to defend the democratic will of the community and ensure the smooth transfer of property and power  then that's fine too. If that is what Marx meant by the dictatorship of the proletariate then I have no reason to disagree with that.

 Well lets look at this logically.If the state in the Marxian sense is an instrument of class rule and presupposes the existence of classes then what you are effectively saying here is that an organised working class, having captured the state, could or might decide to prolong its own existence as the exploited class in capitalism. Yes?  In other words, to prolong the existence of capitalism.  That to me is an absurdity. Why would a revolutionary working class majority which, according to you, would want to effect the transfer of property to the community in general, want at the same time to perpetuate its own existence as a class alienated from the means of production?     It just  doesnt add up.  However, this is what the concept of the DOTP asserts needs to be done. That may seem a somewhat pedantic point Im making but there is a further to make here. Why is it assumed that you need a state to defend the democratic will of the community anyway? Just as a peice of machinery  does not constitute capital in itself but only under certain socio economic conditions so the physical means of defending one self or asserting the will of the majority does not necessarily  constitute a state either but only under conditions in which class relations of production exist. What you are suggesting is that a stateless socialist society has no means by which to enforce its own will – something i would contest.  That aside, the idea that the state is needed to defend the will of the majority presupposes that the majority has already decided to scrap capitalism and ipso facto the capitalist  state.  The state is not something that exists in some physical sense outside of the values , expectations and beliefs of individuals. You cannot simply point to  something called a state as you might , say, building  and declare that you wish to demolish it..  The state is a social insititution and a social insitrituion is a“a complex of positions, roles, norms and values lodged in particular types of social structures and organising relatively stable patterns of human activity with respect to fundamental problems in producing life-sustaining resources, in reproducing individuals, and in sustaining viable societal structures within a given environment."  *Stanford Encyclopedia)One of the strongest arguments in favour of capturing the state is precisely that provides for a kind of symbolic juncture – a specific point in time – when the rules of the social game can be conveniently "switched" and in a form that can be universally recognised and acknowleged by all , friend and foe. The growth of the socialist movement will bring with it the knowlege that the new society will be one in which there will be no classes and hence the state have no place.  With that a new set of rules come into being . To continue in the same metaphorical vein , some inviduals may quite possibly not  want to play the new game, may object to the new  rules and seek by various ways and  means to subvert them – a recalcitrant minority. But that does not alter the fact that socialism would be the only ball game in town once a socialist majoruty have captured the state.  And with that ballgame goes the understanding that classes and the state no longer exist.  Therefore from that point onwards they will cease  to exist.  Not bcause they have in some  literal sense been dismantled but becuase they have no place in the new social order that has just been formally – or institutionally – installed

[robbo203]

robbo203 wrote:

Vin Maratty wrote:

There is a danger of confusing a  class conscious democratically organised working class taking control of the capitalist state with a Leninist minority. Do not confuse our case with theirsSocialists will become anarchists if they abandon the need to take control of the state machinary in order to ensure the safe transfer of property and power to the communityIt would be foolish to expect the capitalist class to voluntarily give up its privileged position in society. "

 Hi Vin, I can assure that there is no possibility whatsoever of me confusing a  "class conscious democratically organised working class taking control of the capitalist state with a Leninist minority". I understand the difference completely  and fully accord with the suggestion that such a democratically organised working class must take control of the state for the reason you state.  Im not an anarchist in that respect. Nor am i a vanguardist who advocates the minority seizure of political power However once again let me point out that this not the issue.  I wish people would attend to the argument that is being put.  The issue is what happens when you take control of the state.  I think it is the view of the SPGB – it is certainly mine – that immediately upon taking control of the state the organised working class must abolish the state and all class relations of production that underpin the very existence of the state. In other words, the working class or proletariat must  immediately abolish itself as the exploited class of capitalism. In this event,  there can be no such thing as a dictatorship of the proletariat since there is no proletariat to do the "dictating".  On the other hand , the advocates of the DOTP  – like the Leninists you mention – do NOT advocate the immediate abolition of the proletariat but propose  – absurdly –  to unnecessarily prolong the existence of the proletariat as the exploited class in capitalism (and hence prolong capitalism itself) for some indeterminate period of time or at least until every country in the world has established a DOTP and everyone can then switch over to socialism in their view However , the implications of such an approach to establishing socialism would be nothing short of disastrous for the working class since what the advocates of the DOTP are suggesting is that  capitalism should be allowed to continue  after the organised working class had seized power. (if that were not the case then how could there be a proletariat if there was no capitalism) But you know and I know that capitalism cannot possibly  be administered in the interests of the proletariat.  So inevitably the DOTP will turn out to be something that works against the interests of the  proletariat.   Inevitably the DOTP will become a dictatorship of capital (more than likely concentrated in the hands of the state – state capitalism) over the proletariat This is the basic point Im trying to make. Please dont confuse the capture of political power by the working class with the concept of the DOTP. They are two quite different things. You can certainly advocate the former without going along with the later at all. 

[robbo203]

Vin Maratty wrote:

There is a danger of confusing a  class conscious democratically organised working class taking control of the capitalist state with a Leninist minority. Do not confuse our case with theirsSocialists will become anarchists if they abandon the need to take control of the state machinary in order to ensure the safe transfer of property and power to the communityIt would be foolish to expect the capitalist class to voluntarily give up its privileged position in society. "

 Hi Vin, I can assure that there is no possibility whatsoever of me confusing a  "class conscious democratically organised working class taking control of the capitalist state with a Leninist minority". I understand the difference completely  and fully accord with the suggestion that such a democratically organised working class must take control of the state for the reason you state.  Im not an anarchist in that respect. Nor am i vanguardist who advocates the minority seizure of political power However once again let me point out that this not the issue.  I wish people would attend to the argument that is being put.  The issue is what happens when you take control of the state.  I think it is the view of the SPGB – it is certainly mine – that immediately upon taking control of the state the organised working class must abolish the state and all class relations of production that underpin the very existence of the state. In other words, the working class or proletariat must  immediately abolish itself as the exploited class of capitalism. In this event,  there can be no such thing as a dictatorship of the proletariat since there is no proletariat to do the "dictating".  On the other hand , the advocates of the DOTP  – like the Leninists you mention – do NOT advocate the immediate abolition of the proletariat but propose  – absurdly –  to unnecessarily prolong the existence of the proletariat as the exploited class in captalism (and hence prolong capitalism itself) for some indeterminate period of time or at least until every country in the world has established a DOTP and everyone can then switch over to socialism in their view However , the impications of such an approach to establishing socialism would be nothing short of disastrous for the working class since what the advocates of the DOTP are suggesting is trhat  capitalism should be allowed to contrinue  after the organised working class had seized power. (if that were not the case then how could there be a proletariat if there was no capitalism) But you know and I know that capitalism cannot possibly  be administered in the interests of the proletariat.  So inevitably the DOTP will turn out to be something that works against the interests of the  proletariat.   Inevitably the DOTP will become a dictatorship of capital (more than like concentrated in the hands of the state – state capitalism) over the proletariat This is the basic point Im trying to make. Please dont confuse the capture of political power by the working class with the concept of the DOTP. They are two quite different things. You can certainly advocate the former without going along with the later at all. Just to reiterate

[robbo203]

steve colborn wrote:

For the "dictatorship of the proletariat", simply substitute the "will of the majority", or more simple still, "democracy". In essence, that is all that is meant by the DOTP. The confusion, as far as I am concerned, is caused by people giving overmuch emphasis on the term, "dictatorship". If one understands the prerequisites needed, before Socialism can be brought about, this term becomes an irrelevance, as understanding would explain.

Steve The problem is that that is NOT all that is meant by the DOTP…. I have no problem with the need to capture political power.  Nor have I any problem with the need for this to be done democratically  from the bottom up.  And you are right  – by "dictatorship" in this context, Marx and Engels did not mean the the absence of democracy but rather the "will of the majority "as you say ,  coming to prevail or dictate .  However, all of these points are not relevant to what is actually being discussed here The point is what happens AFTER the revolutionary capture of political power.   This where  the DOTP entails a lot more than just the argument that the working class needs to capture power.  It  entails also the idea that workers as a class should hold onto to that power – i.e. the state  – and should strive to manage capitalism in the interim  in the form of a working class government for some indeterminate period of time,  trying to operate capitalism in the interests of the workers  Then, and only then, when   DOTPs have been set up in every country in the world , can they collectively establish  global socialism in one fell swoop right across the world.  I hold that this view would be absolutely toxic to the interests of the working class for reasons that were outlined in the OP.   It would lead to substitutionism and the workers being sold down the river as the so called proletarian state adminstering capitalism would increasingly   find itself having to adapt to the exigencies of running capitalism with its need to first  and foremost  make a profit.  As I say, this is all bog standard SPGB thinking but what I  am trying to do is to show that all this will happen if you hold the view that socialism must come about globally right across the world in one single fell swoop There cannot be a working class  (or indeed a capitalist class) after the revolutionary capture of political power for the reasons explained.   Which is why, strictly speaking, I think Vin is wrong to argue that  the working class only abolishes itself after this  event.  The event itself  will mark – i.e. coincide with – the complete deconstitution  and disappearance of the working class rather than what Marx misleadingly stated would be an attempt "raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class"  – something that can only serve to perpetuate  a class divided society: capitalism. It is not possible for an exploited class to be a ruling class and it makes absolutely no sense even to make such a claim.  Worse still it feeds the reformist assumptions of the Left that capitalism can somehow be operated for the benefit of the working class.  The whole concept of the DOTP needs to be vigorously opposed by revolutionary socialists.

[robbo203]

rodshaw wrote:

 I think there's a lot to be said for this way of looking at it. This idea of 'habitus' is reinforced by the fact that people mostly just want to get their heads down and get through the next working day. Any idea which is too wacky, doesn't conform to their normal view of life or is in some way seen as threatening is quickly pushed aside. At the same time it's part of the reason why those with a super-high IQ or all the leisure time in the world to think about things don't automatically arrive at a socialist view – it's not rocket science but it's a million miles from what they know of the world and how they think it should work.

 Exactly.  Which brings out another point which i think Ozy is entirely missing: dont judge a book by its cover,  Dont be fooled by mere appearance.  I dont imagine for one moment  that in my line of work (garden landscaping cum ground maintenance ) , for instance, any of my customers have the foggiest idea of my political affiliations and would probably be horrified to discover I was revolutionary socialist.  There is one very nice couple I work for – both stalwart Labour Party supporters –  who love to engage me in political discussion but I find I have to very often bite my tongue and be circumspect.  I dont want to risk antagonising them for obvious reasons so have developed a kind of oblique way of talking politics with them. From their point I probably come across as a relatively non committal, mildly left of centre person.  Im sure many in the SPGB must often find themselves in the same boat. Expediency is the name of the game and in my view it is a very important understated  reason why people are not drawn to socialism in their droves – not because they are "stupid".  It frankly shocks me that fellow socialists can describe members of our class in these condescending terms,  Apart from anything it is such a simplistic superficial way of looking at things To some extent I think David Graeber , the anarchist anthropologist, with his concept of the "Communism of Everyday Life" makes a valid point.  There is an interesting reference to this here:http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/David_Graeber__Hope_in_Common.htmlIt makes a refreshing change to the hopelessness and  class defeatism that Ozy preaches

[robbo203]

Ozymandias wrote:

Obviously the guy making the video is just inviting us to laugh along with him at how utterly stupid the majority of US workers are. I actually think the Internet is making workers more and more dense. Not the other way round. This along with online porn, football, gadgets, daily rags,  shit on telly, faecesbook, celebrity twitter tattle, mind numbing movies, religion and video games. Dished up to appeal to the addictive side of human behaviour. Workers minds are dormant. They are now more stupid than they've ever been in history. I believe this.Its cool to be stupid now especially among young workers. They are trying to "out-stupid" each other. Just look at any docu-soap on telly about young proles on holiday or at the workplace. Total cretins. It's all a product of the concerted effort by our masters to radically dumb down the whole of society in the past 30 years. The proles are lapping it up. The dullard donkeys love being slaves. I detest them. Shoot me down if you like. I don't give a fuck.A Socialist Revolution? Never in a million years. It's about as likely as the 2nd coming. The masters will be in power forever…or at least until they blow the planet up to fuck or let it roast in an irriversable environmental catastrophe. "Humanity" is just a horrible virus polluting this Earth and Capitalism is its face. The planet will eventually get rid of us in its own way. 

 Personally, I think this whole line of argument is fundamentally flawed and smacks not a little of "Great Man" conspiracy theory – the super-intelligent Übermensch that is our master class  have cunningly ensured  the relentless dumbing down of the  proles and their slavish adherence to the status quo.  As if.  Our masters don't strike me as being any more – or less-  intelligent than us and most  of them have only got to where they are by virtue of having chosen the right parents I think the fact that the majority of workers continue to basically accept capitalism and all that it entails has got sod all to do with intelligence –  or, rather, the lack of it .  Dissing your fellow workers as cretinous buffoons, apart from being incredibly insulting, is plainly false. You mention the internet, Ozy. But if you have the cognitive capacity to surf the web or accomplish any of the myriad of other  technical tasks that goes with living a life of a modern wage slave then you sure as hell have the raw ability to grasp the simple case for socialism.  Unfortunately your  use of the term "stupid" implies that they lack that ability. This points to  what i have long thought is a basic weakness in the SPGB´s approach – its over emphasis on rationality.  The basic assumption is that the case for socialism is pretty much self evident and mere exposure to that case, given our basic rationality,  will compel individual workers to accept it.  When they fail to accept it,  this can seem utterly incomprehensible and  at times can lead  to a quite opposite response – a complete repudiation of the assumption of rationality to which the individual had previously appealed  in putting forward the socialist case.  Some would argue that it is a characteristic of black-or-white thinking that you can switch so easily from one extreme to the other. I would suggest it would be helpful to turn our attention elsewhere if we are to discover why it is that workers are not currently coming round in their droves to  accept the case for socialism,  I'm not a great fan of the French sociologist/anthropologist,  Pierre Bourdieu, but I do think something like his key concept of habitus goes quite a long way to explaining why this is the case: There is a succinct explanation of ´"habitus" in Wikipedia as followsBourdieu thus sees habitus as an important factor contributing to social reproduction because it is central to generating and regulating the practices that make up social life. Individuals learn to want what conditions make possible for them, and not to aspire to what is not available to them. The conditions in which the individual lives generate dispositions compatible with these conditions (including tastes in art, literature, food, and music), and in a sense pre-adapted to their demands. The most improbable practices are therefore excluded, as unthinkable, by a kind of immediate submission to order that inclines agents to make a virtue of necessity, that is, to refuse what is categorically denied and to will the inevitable And also here Habitus is one of Bourdieu’s most influential yet ambiguous concepts. It refers to the physical embodiment of cultural capital, to the deeply ingrained habits, skills, and dispositions that we possess due to our life experiences. Bourdieu often used sports metaphors when talking about the habitus, often referring to it as a “feel for the game.” Just like a skilled baseball player “just knows” when to swing at a 95-miles-per-hour fastball without consciously thinking about it, each of us has an embodied type of “feel” for the social situations or “games” we regularly find ourselves in. In the right situations, our habitus allows us to successfully navigate social environments. For example, if you grew up in a rough, crime ridden neighborhood in Baltimore, you would likely have the type of street smarts needed to successfully survive or steer clear of violent confrontations, “hustle” for jobs and money in a neighborhood with extremely low employment, and avoid police surveillance or harassment. However, if you were one of the lucky few in your neighborhood to make it to college, you would probably find that this same set of skills and dispositions was not useful—and maybe even detrimental—to your success in your new social scenario.http://routledgesoc.com/category/profile-tags/habitus This chimes quite a lot with how I see things.  Workers don't reject socialism  because they are "stupid", they reject it because they cannot see the immediate relevance of socialism to their lives and the structures of everyday living.  If we can break through that particular impasse we stand a chance of gaining ground and social influence. Habitus reminds me a little of the ideas of George Walford and his Systematic  Ideology (Walford, for people, who may not have heard of him, was a trenchant and long standing critic of the SPGB).  Accept that Bourdieu´s concept of habitus is not a static one – like Walford´s hierarchy of ideological types – but dynamic.  I would like to think that as the socialist movement grows it will reach a critical threshold where factors that once worked against us – including habitus – will start to work in our favour Looking at the question of socialist consciousness from the perspective of "habitus", seems to me to be a much more rewarding approach than simply appealing to workers´ rationality – or indeed discounting the ability of workers to think rationally for themselves as you seemingly do, Ozy.   In fact I would go so far as to say that part of the reason why workers fail to be drawn to socialism is because of attitudes such as you express here.  If you have such low expectations of workers then to be quite blunt  you can hardly expect them to join you, can you?  All  you are doing is reproducing or reinforcing a ruling class ideology that keeps them in their place     

[robbo203]

pgb wrote:

If I failed to address your earlier point – that there is no such thing as a free lunch in capitalism – it's because I didn't see your point. Distinguishing between the money wage and the social wage didn't make it any clearer. Saying that "free hospital care comes at a cost" is a truism. In a socialist society "free" hospital care would come at a cost too. Were you suggesting that because it wasn't truly "free" therefore workers had been hoodwinked into getting it and supporting it, or duped by those awful "reformists"? With your single-minded focus on costs, you have missed what I think is an important reason why socialists should support such things as free public health provision. By being "free", medical care is "decommodified" – it is not available only through the market, but available by right, to all without distinction of wealth, class, race or whatever. I see that as supporting the values of socialism – production for need and equality of access to society's resources. If health care were a truly capitalist provision it would be a commodity accessible only through the market, and it would be provided only if it were profitable. Same argument applies to public schooling. Although nominal fees (as opposed to prices) may play a part in mediating the allocation of these public goods, the allocating mechanism is not sale, but simply rights to free use (usually supported by legal claims). Saying that the provision of public goods is in the interest of capital doesn't disturb this fact, but of course it puts limits on them which will always be a focus of political contestation (eg. current austerity budget cuts in the UK).

Well, yes, I can see that you didn't "see the point" judging by the little red herring you offer here. I wasn't actually intent on uttering a "truism" in the sense you mean – that   "free hospital care comes at a cost" – or trying to get you to acknowledge the blindingly obvious. Of course even in socialism –  in any society – there will be opportunity costs involved in the provision of health care.  My point was a rather different one and hinged precisely on the distinction between the social wage and the money wage which comprise the two basic components of the workers' standard of living. I thought I had made it clear what that point was but obviously didn't in your case.    So as they say, if you don't at first succeed, try again.What I was trying to get you to see is that these two things – the social wage and the money wage – stand in inverse relationship to each other which is precisely what the labour theory of value would lead us to expect. In other words and all things being equal, an increase in the social wage will tend to result in a fall in the money wage. That is actually what I meant when I said  "free hospital care comes at a cost", not that it costs something  (in terms of resouces) to provide hospital care.  To put it simply. the more things that workers get for free – including, literally, that free lunch at their workplace –  the smaller will be their wage packet at the end of the day. This is because the direct costs to the worker of producing and reproducing his/her labour power have fallen which will then have the effect of pulling down wage levels.  This works the other way too.  If things that were once free are no longer free then the consequence of that will be to push up the money wage to cover the increased direct cost to the worker of producing and reproducing his or her labour power.  But as I said this is not something that just happens automatically through the market process.  It is mediated by class struggle and influenced by the "respective powers of the combatants" (Marx) engaged in that struggleOnce you  understand this point we can then go on to look at your point about the "decommodification" of goods and services such as health care provision and schooling which you suggests expresses the "values of socialism".  I can sort of sympathise with what you are trying to get at here there but I still think you' ve got all this seriously wrong.  It reminds me of the supermarket slogan "buy one and get one free". Now you wouldn't cite that as instance of "decommodification", would you?  Or perhaps you would. Perhaps you really do believe  that the supermarket is blazing a trail to a commodityless socialist future by offering us one free bottle of gherkins for every other one we buy.   A sort embryonic growth of socialism within the womb of capitalism  nicely packaged and located somewhere along the second aisle next to the baked beans that unfortunately  remain stubbornly capitalist and completely commodified. I dunno. You tell me.In any event, I disagree strongly with you on this point that the free provision of public goods is somehow, in and of  itself, consonant with the expression of "socialists values".  There is no necessary connection at all and I would remind you once again that it was ultra-conservatives like Otto von Bismarck who pioneered the idea of state welfare. Read again my earlier posts which provide relevant quotes that back up this point. This notion thoughtlessly  peddled by some on the Left – including, it seems, your good self  – that the  limited process of "decommodification" in the sphere of consumption as represented by the free provision of public goods is a good thing in that it somehow embodies what they, and  you , chose to call "socialist values",  is utterly naive and simplistic.  To the contrary, I question completely the claim that this kind of supermarket "get-something-for-nothing" approach  to the provision of goods and services has anything necessarily to do with socialist values at all. It could just as easily accommodate itself to a bourgeois egoistic outlook and bind workers over all the more more solidly to the capitalist social order.   Lenin's labour aristocracy theory got it all wrong, I reckon. It is not the elite of the labour force that are bribed out of the superprofits made in the third world, to promote reformism and reject revolution  It is the working class in general that is bribed or seduced into the supporting the existing social order  through the provision of free health care and the like. The subtext is that if capitalism can provide us with such things for zilch it must surely have our welfare at heart and so we should be eternally grateful and not try to rock the boatThe illusion of a system of universal benefits is that we live in a universe in which our interests are all the same.  This also has distinct nationalist overtones: "we" are meant to be proud of "our" national health service  which is supposedly the "envy of the world".  I might finally add that it is not for no reason that the whole area of "public goods" has been subjected to "tragedy of the commons"  or "free rider" type of analysis by bourgeois commentators; they presume the existence of a capitalist market and competing economic actors which will of course undermine integrity of these so called public goods and for good reason since the provision of such public goods in no way alters the fundamentally capitalist nature of the society we live inI would suggest to you that if you are looking to some kind of "prefigurative"  form that encapsulates or embodies what you call socialist values then this is to be found not in the sphere of consumption but rather in the sphere of production – human activity. It is the decommodification of human labour that really holds far more significance, potentially at least,  as far as "values of socialism" is concerned – that is to say, in the extent and nature of what is called the non market "grey "economy  – rather than in  the passive consumption of  so called free goods and services as such which, as I say,  can just as easily be conditioned  or appropriated by a non-socialist,  or even virulently anti "socialist",  ethos and always come with strings attached.  But  I guess all this is the subject of another thread and we ought really  to focus instead on the immediate matter at hand: reformismOne final point – you  do finally seem to agree that the provision of public goods must be in the interests of capital and that this "puts limits" on the extent of such provisioning. The case of the welfare state demonstrates this. It simply would not have materialised  had not significant sections of the capitalist class sanctioned it and seen that it was in their own class interests .  It was not imposed on a reluctant capitalist class by an idealistically driven , well meaning labour government presumably embodying the "values of socialism" from your point of view and the quotes I provided completely destroy this kind of mythic view you seem to harbour concerning of the role of that obnoxious anti-working class capitalist entity  that is the Labour Party.  The point is that things are different now compared to back then .  Then it suited the capitalist class very well to decommodify some things like health care because the benefits in terms of lowered costs and increased efficiency outweighed the disadvantages .  Today it is you who is are swimming against the tide as far as capitalism is concerned in that what we are seeing  is not the "decommodification" of goods and services but rather a clear trend in the opposite direction: the increasingly commodification of more and more aspects of our lives and a withering of the provision of public goods. What was once in the interests of capital is not quite to the same extent anymore. As they say,  "he who pays the piper plays the tune". You cannot operate a capitalist system of production except in the interests of capital. The form in which these interests express themselves is historically contingent and subject to changing conditions. The funding crisis in the NHS, prescription charges  and the development of an internal market are all part of an unfolding story in which the underlying narrative is what best serves the interests of British capitalism or  (any other national capitalism)  in the current circumstances

pgb wrote:

Why shouldn't socialists join in this fight? Your position seems to be that since welfare state provisions are of interest to capitalists, therefore they cannot be in workers' interests even though you say workers can benefit from them. Therefore socialists cannot support political action to maintain or defend these provisions. This is only so because you have chosen to define the interests of workers (their "true interests") as being essentially antagonistic to the interests of capital. You should ask workers what they see as their interests. Your so-called "paradox" has been fabricated out of your own definitions and preconceptions. I have no idea why you say that I don't care much for Marxian economics, since the opposite is true. But I don't see it as the universal truth about everything in a capitalist society. I said that the LTV is a no-no as a theory of wage determination – which is a small part of Marxian economics. And I only said that because it's wrapped up in the SPGB view of taxation which I have argued against many times on the old WSM Forum and have no intention of getting involved in again.

No once again you are misunderstanding or downright misrepresenting what I am saying.  I do not say that specific welfare state provisions  cannot be in the interests of workers  or benefit them – I think, incidentally, the  distinction you  make between these two words is a totally spurious one  – but rather that they are implemented within the framework of a society that must necessarily operate  against the interests of those workers since it is fundamentally based on the systematic exploitation of them.  This is the point I was making and this is what I meant by the "paradox" in question.  It is hardly case of me having "fabricated"  such a thing out of my own "definitions and preconceptions" since such a paradox is logically implicit, or  inheres, in your perspective as well. After all , you have agreed that workers are indeed  systematically exploited under capitalism and thus by extension that capitalism cannot be operated in their interests.  By its very nature a system of exploitation can only operate in the interests of those who do the exploiting and not those who are exploited. So consequently you too must accept that there is "paradox" at work here in that any reforms implemented that might appear to work in the interests of workers are nevertheless implemented within a society that must systematically work against those interests.The point is that socialists want to get rid of this system of exploitation rather than perpetuate it or attempt to make it more palatable. Reformism – that is the advocacy of reforms – does not in a way threaten this system or seek to get rid and, insofar as its diverts energies away from the goal of overthrowing capitalism, it actually services to consolidate capitalism. This is the key point that you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge. You persist in saying that certain reforms can benefit workers when nobody is actually denying this. What has been said  instead is that such reforms can never be enough and can never solve the underlying problems that workers face under capitalism; they are palliatives Furthermore, even as mere palliatives they cannot be relied upon. There is no guarantee that the mere existence of a legislative enactment will even be acted upon in practice. As I said before reforms can be, and have been,  widely ignored or watered down and rendered ineffectual in practice. Not only that, one reform can directly compete with another in a bid to attract more funding from an obviously limited state budget.  So reformism as well as detracting from the need to fundamentally overthrow a rotten society  can be hugely divisive in pitting one reform lobby against another .Above all, reforms will only be introduced if that suit the interests  of the capitalist class (or significant sections of that class) to do that.  Any benefits that workers derive from reforms will be incidental to this primary purpose and used as means to further that purpose. This is the point that you consistently  ignore but it is actually rather  fundamental to a whole critique of reformism. How can the promotion of reforms which ultimately benefit the capitalist class lead in any way to the establishment of a society in which that class no longer even exists? You have nothing to say on the subject whatsoever  except to lamely profess to holding  "socialist values".  What good are socialists values without the commitment to work for socialism?  The reformism that you advocate is a black hole  into which  your socialist pretensions will simply disappear leaving only the empty rhetoric.

pgb wrote:

Oh dear, being upbraided am I! Isn't it a bit of a conceit to expect me to accept your particular definition of reforms? I don’t think it’s a good definition. This is mainly for the reason that it's not easy to separate what's "economic" from what's "political", particularly in advanced capitalist economies today where institutions in civil society (schools, media etc) are so important because of their ideological function, but also (particularly in my part of the world) where a lot of key economic relationships are legitimated through institutions of the capitalist state (eg. industrial arbitration). What about education, which has both economic and political functions? The SPGB website includes education (and housing, child employment, work conditions and social security) as examples of "successful reforms which have made a difference to the lives of millions". You don't explain clearly what "reforming capitalism" actually entails. The word "reforming" to me suggests something positive, like welfare state provisions. Elsewhere you refer to "mending" capitalism and in context it suggests that mending is what reforming does. But I think mending capitalism should refer to those actions of governments which maintain and extend the capitalist economy, but which have no direct benefit to workers, like regulating the finance sector as part of a govt. action to avoid financial instability. That's mending, not reforming. You seem to run the two concepts together. So I'd agree that you can't both mend and end capitalism. But certainly you can want to end it and also pursue reforms.

Saying that it is not easy in practice to separate  the economic domain and the political domain does not mean they cannot be analytically distinguished. In fact there is a rather neat example of this in Marx's letter to Bolte in 1871 in which he states: “The attempt in a particular factory or even in a particular trade to force a shorter working day out of individual capitalists by strikes, etc. is a purely economic movement. On the other hand, the movement to force through an eight-hour, etc., law, is a political movement". Trade unions, of course, frequently cross the line between the economic and political domains by lobbying for particular pieces of legislation or by explicitly supporting certain political parties and even providing funds for them. Nevertheless for the purposes of analytical clarity you have to make such distinction even if these different domains  represent only "ideal types"Reformism, Ive  argued, needs to be understood as political action undertaken in the political domian in the form of legislative enactments of decrees which have as their focus issues arising fundamentally within the economic domain .  Capitalism being an essentially economic system, it then follows that reformism – the  attempt to reform capitalism –  must have as its focus the economic domain since it is precisely in that domain that capitalism is fundamentally constituted.  That is to say,  capitalism is basically defined as a system of ECONOMIC  relations based on private ownership of the means of production . It is the attempt to work with and through this system  of economic relationships to achieve certain economic ends  that is meant by "reforming" capitalism. I see no substantive difference between this and "mending" capitalism. Mending capitalism can also suggest something "positive" and regulation of the financial sector can also be construed as "benefiting" the workers by mitigating the damaging prospects of "financial instability" – to use your example –  which would directly affect them.  In either case it is not the direct benefit to the workers that is the primary concern of the reform in question  and you need to separate the rhetoric surrounding a reform from the practical consequence of such a reform. Of course politicians will always try to sell a reform to the electorate on the grounds that it benefits them. Nevertheless, their  primary concern has to be the interests of capital –  what is "best for business – since it is the capitalist class that hasin the end  to fund the reform in question. Any benefits that the reform offers the workers is incidental and conditional upon the interests of capital being served.  Go back to my previous post and the quote from Courtauld which amply illustrates this very point . State welfare measures, he is saying , which benefits  workers also make them more productive.  This is a well worn theme. The canny slave owner of past ages knew well enough that a better fed slave made for a more productive slave.Not all reforms are strictly reformist. Some are but many are not.  You mention education. Well, some educational reforms  are clearly reformist e,g, education funding   but others are not e,g.determination of the contents of school curricula such as the way in which history is taught in schools. In the latter case the focus of such reforms is the ideological domain  (and obliquely also  perhaps the political domain) rather than the economic domain as such.The case against reformism is that capitalism cannot be reformed  – not that reforms cannot be attempted – and in saying that capitalism cannot be reformed we are referring to its essential as nature as an economic system – how it operates in economic terms.  Looked at it in this way we can begin to see how the distinction between the economic domain and the political or ideological domains makes intuitive sense – even if in practice there  will be a blurring of such a distinctionPolitical reforms – like universal suffrage and freedom of expression – are different in nature to economic reforms.  This difference becomes apparent when we look at the kind of impediments of constraints that are brought bear on each.  So for example  a  piece of legislation that  permits a free press to function and to voice criticism of the government is of course a reform that can be realised and has been realised. It is perfectly compatible with the existence of a capitalist system of society.  With economic reforms that have as their focus the economic domain we find a find a different set of circumstances applying where such reforms  are seriously constrained by the workings out of the immanent laws of the capitalist economy itself as Marx put it.  So for example there is in  capitalism  a built in tendency for the economy to move through distinct cycles of boom and bust.  The capitalist trade cycle is thus an ineradicable aspect of capitalism that can be reformed out of existence  and the practicality of economic reforms such as government spending is closely conditoned by to this fact. and the need to ensure profitability.  That is why in economically straightened times you will see government spending being cut back – retrenchment. Governments cannot risk killing the goose that lays their golden eggs through excessive taxation – namely the profits accruing to capitalist businesses.  But if we look again at political reforms we see that there is no intrinsic reason why for example a capitalist society cannot function on a more or less  indefinite basis with the trappings of a liberal bourgeois democracy.  Overt political dictatorships  are an eradicable aspect of capitalist society in a way that the capitalist trade cycle is not.  This is what I mean by the kind of structural constraints confronting different kinds of reforms providing grounds for making an analytical distinction between these different kinds of domainsThis connects incidentally with  the materialist conception of history and the base-superstructure model it employs. It would be crudely reductionist to claim that society's superstructure – its dominant ideology and political institutions etc – merely reflect its economic base.  Rather the former exercise a degree of autonomy in  its own right in these base -superstructure interactions. When we turn to consider what constitutes the (economic) base in this model, however,  we see an important difference.  The whole point of a Marxist critique of capitalism surely is that capitalism is not subject to conscious control and regulation but is governed by forces – "laws" if you prefer –   beyond the power of governments to direct. It is the economy itself that appears to be autonomous rather than the subjective will of human beings in respect of what happens in the material base of society. No one for example consciously wills  that a recession should come about yet a recession happens. Why ?  Because what happens in the economy  is subject to abstract economic forces beyond our ability to control. If we could control them then there would be no such  thing as an economic recession since how could it possibly  benefit the capitalist class to  inflict a recession upon themselves when the inner dynamic of capitalism itself is all about growth and accumulation which economic competition obliges them to pursueSo that then is the grounds on which I claim that a distinction between the political or ideological domain., on the one hand,  and the economic domain, on the other makes good  intuitive sense and why I argue that not all reforms are necessarily reformist in the strict sense i.e.. they don't necessarily have as their focus the economic domain.  It is the futility of  pursuing reforms in the strictly reformist sense which is what I am arguing about but it is not to be inferred from that  that this  necessarily makes non reformist reforms worth pursuing either. That depends very much on circumstances on what a political movement to abolish capitalism requires in order to effectively function.  Such reforms would include basic democratic  rights  such as freedom of speech and assembly and obviously the right to vote.  These are the kind of reforms that I argue a socialist movement should pro-actively advocate and pursue.  Other kinds of non reformist reforms may only  serve as a distraction and a diversion of energies  that detract from the revolutionary goal of overthrowing capitalism

pgb wrote:

My comments on liberal democratic rights was a response to your insignificant remark that "rights are not inviolable” and your significant ones revealing the way you saw liberal democratic politics, eg. legislation being "scraps of paper", "workers going cap in hand, etc. etc." which I thought to be driven by dogmatic a priori propositions of the kind usually found amongst the fringe left . But revealing too, because they were part of a theory of the state and politics which I thought fairly poor – probably because Marxism has always lacked a serious political theory because "politics" is regarded as ("essentially") a matter of something else ("economics"). Also, I get a sense that for you, "rights" are useful only in an instrumental sense ("indispensable as a precondition for the existence of an effective socialist movement") and have no intrinsic worth as they have for me. It's ironic however that you should mention the "right" to privacy to shore up your claim to be a better sceptic then me with regard to the viability of "rights", since I originally intended to include it in my list but thought better of it and deleted it. This was because the right to privacy is the quintessential bourgeois right and I didn't want to be verbally slammed for mentioning it on a socialist website. Since you referred to the recent NSA cellphone spying program in the US as an example of a right to privacy it's worth mentioning that a Federal Court judge in the US recently ruled the scheme unconstitutional, a violation of the 4th Amendment. He called the program "Orwellian". As I said before, some rights are whittled away and whittled back, some services and entitlements are reduced , but they have not been wholly questioned, so I see them as part of the permanent landscape of a liberal democratic state. A fascist/military coup could change all that of course, but I don't see much evidence of that in western democratic states at present. Meanwhile, workers must fight to defend these rights. I am supporting Get-Up campaigns here for this purpose. Not much, I admit. What are you doing?

Actually it strikes me that your position here is actually  the "dogmatic apriori one",  not mine.  And what strikes me even more is the complete unrealism of so much of what you have to say.  Marxism lacks a serious political theory, you say,  "because "politics" is regarded as ("essentially") a matter of something else ("economics")."    Really? But hang on here! So much of politics IS  a matter of economics when you think about.  Politicians are forever bleating on about how "we must make Brtiain more competitive" whether the banks need to be rescued, how we must restain wage demands etc etc  Politics has very much as it focus precisely the economic domain (which is what I mean by reformism) After all , what the hell do you think your earlier comments about limits being put on that the provision of public goods  being  a "focus of political contestation" , amount to ?  Ironically you yourself explicitly  locate such  "political contestation" in an economic environment of austerity  –  (eg.the  current austerity budget cuts in the UK). Your thinking on this matter seems  very muddled..And once again you confuse political reforms and economic reforms, My reference to workers going cap in hand to governments to lobby for reforms applied to the latter not the former. As I said before the question of  basic democratic reforms is different  from that of economic reforms (reformism properly speaking) since without a modicum of democratic rights – like the franchise or freedom of speech – it would be very difficult for a socialist organisation to even function. Yes that is an " instrumentalist" view of democratic rights but that doesn't preclude such rights having an intrinsic worth in themselves, does it now?  I can quite conceive of the right to free speech having value in itself while insisting that it is of crucial importance to the existence of a socialist political party.  It is only because we are talking in this context of what stance a socialist political party needs to  take that I emphasised the instrumentalist aspect of rights. You view is a little  too black or white I think.On the question of the right to privacy being a  quintessential bourgeois right  well I think this is a little naive, frankly and smacks precisely of the kind dogmatic a priori propositions of the kind you say is  " usually found amongst the fringe left"   . It is actually about the power of the capitalist state to intrude into the lives of its subjects ultimately for the purposes of exerting social control on its own terms. If it is "bourgeois" of me to see something sinister behind the efforts of the NSA to tap into phone conversions and email correspondence of individuals then I plead guilty to succumbing such bourgeois sentiments.  Am I to take it  that you regard the prospect  of the capitalist state being able to enhance and extend its control over its subject, to curb dissent  and engender a sense of paranoia and fear in the population as a matter of complete indifference?  I would be shocked if you didIncidentally your point about the Federal court judge ruling that the NSA program was unconstitutional and Orwellian rather bears out my point that that the existence of a paper commitment to some principle is no guarantee to it being flouted in practice.  As for political reforms so also for economic reforms You say " some rights are whittled away and whittled back, some services and entitlements are reduced , but they have not been wholly questioned".  But they don't have to be "wholly questioned" . it is enough that they can be "whittled away and whittled back" to prove my point. That point rather undermines  the whole Bernsteinian-cum-Fabian  paradigm of a progressive irresistible  trend at work   bringing about a fundamental change in society through incremental reforms. .

pgb wrote:

No, I don't reject the notion that exploitation, strictly in the sense in which Marx used that term in his LTV, is applicable to a modern capitalist economy. But I reject the dogma that puts Marx's concept of exploitation at the heart of a socialist political strategy for advanced capitalist societies in the 21st century. Where the objective condition of exploitation exists the subjective experience of it rarely does, in my experience. Eg. a worker is highly exploited, but is convinced she/he has never had it so good and is not in the least exploited. No doubt you would say she is a victim of false consciousness. However, it's possible things are different in different capitalist societies. Eg: amongst rural labourers in Andalusia with its anarchist millenarian traditions.

This is confusing. You don't deny that workers are exploited  but you do reject the dogma that puts Marx's concept of exploitation at the heart of a socialist political strategy for advanced capitalist societies in the 21st century.  So I take it then that you regard the fact that workers are exploited as being merely a trivial matter not worthy to be placed at the "heart of a socialist political strategy" .  The fact that the exploitation of  wage labour is the source of surplus value out of which capital is  accumulated and that it is the relentless accumulation of capital that defines capitalism and gives rise to the very issues that reformist try to grapple  with – all of this seemingly counts for very little in your book. The mind boggles as to what exactly you think ought to constitute the "heart of a socialist political strategy" in your view if not the desire to get rid of the system that exploits the workers. Of course the objective fact of exploitation is often not matched by the subjective realisation that we are exploited as workers. You are not telling us anything new here.  But you yourself have agreed that workers are objectively exploited and therefore you are obliged to logically accept  what follows from this  – that those who think otherwise are mistaken. Its either that or you are mistaken in thinking the workers are objectively exploited  You cant be both right!The subjective perceptions of workers  are moulded by precisely  the kind of assumptions that underlie a reformist mode of  thinking such as the idea that that state is some kind of neutral  body that hovers over society and strives to work evenhandedly in the interests of everyone.  Similarly the mistaken idea that workers share the burden  of taxation underpins the idea that we live of a stakeholder society in which everyone has a stake and ought therefore to contribute financially  to its upkeep and running 

pgb wrote:

You are right that I am not offering an "exit route from capitalism" because I don't think there are "exit routes" from one mode of production to another. There are transitions over very long periods of historical time, therefore I don't envisage socialism as an emergent society "founded" in one decisive act built on the revolutionary consciousness of the working class who replace capitalism with socialism in an afternoon or a week, all over the world. You seem to believe that because I reject revolution therefore I see reforms as the way to go – that the steady advance of reforms eventually leads to socialism, somewhat like Bernstein's conception. I have never thought this. I support reforms where they advantage the working class. Whether eventually they lead cumulatively towards socialism I simply don't know (neither do you). But they can have a socialist character (as described before re public provision of free health care etc) and this I support. I am a socialist because I support the values of socialism : equality, fraternity, common ownership, freedom (self-realisation etc) and grass roots democracy. So where I see these things emerging I support them. Where they are threatened I defend them.

If there is no exit route from capitalism then of course it would be difficult if not impossible to see how capitalism can be transcended at all. What you are saying, however, is  something slightly different  which is that you don't know of such an exit route and are therefore not offering one  . Fair enough.   But there is surely  a little more that can be said about the matter than than this  kind of non committal agnosticism you offer.  The establishment of socialism, presupposes  something more that just a commitment to what is vaguely called  "socialist values". It has to also entail , surely, a reasonably clear conception of what a socialist society is about and the conscious determination  to bring such a society into being.   You cant bring about socialism without knowing roughly what it means, can you?Despite what you say, that unavoidably involves the emergence of a revolutionary consciousness. Revolution is not, as you seem to think , about the duration or manner  (violent or peaceful) of the process of changing from one kind of society to another.  Whether is happens in week or a day or an entire epoch is besides the point even if that  might be an interesting matter to speculate upon.  Revolution is actually about the change itself from one mode of production to another. If you reject revolution as you say you  do then you reject  by implication  the need to change society from it current capitalist form. In short you support the retention of  capitalism. That is what is meant by rejecting revolution. 

pgb wrote:

In referring to "empowerment" I was referring to the experience of people engaged in a struggle to improve their working conditions or defending public goods or democratic rights which I have seen and participated in. It is a simple expression of what happens through participatory democracy: people engage in changing their conditions and through that process they change themselves : they develop a sense of political efficacy and self confidence and they learn how to organise themselves in fighting for a practical program. There is plenty of empirical evidence to support this. Reformist activity, even allowing for your restricted definition of reforms, surely can be a site for “empowerment” just as much as revolutionary activity IMO. You can’t accept this because you persist in believing that if reforms help maintain capitalism, therefore they cannot be in the of the interest of the working class. But history has proven you wrong. So if you want to blame someone for the failure of the workers to become a revolutionary class, don’t blame the insidious ideology of reformism, or betrayals by reformist politicians or the BBC or whatever. Blame History.

Sorry but this is  dangerously naive and complacent.  You don't seem to see that struggle , while it can indeed lead to empowerment and a sense of political efficacy,  also has the capacity to bring about the very opposite –  disempowerment and a severe loss of "political efficacy".  So much depends on the outcome of the struggle in question and the terms in which it conducted.The socialist analysis of reformism is that it is incapable of succeeding on its own terms and that that failure is built into the reformist project from the very outset. Capitalism cannot be run in the interests of workers and to promote the belief that it can is bound to lead to disappointment.. You have admitted yourself  that rights have been whittled away and welfare provisions cut back. It is not out  of a sense of "empowerment" that reformist politics has afforded workers that they still, despite everything, continue to press for reforms or vote for capitalist parties, but out a sense of desperation at their plight  resulting from the very failure of reformism to solve the problems that afflict them in the first placeIt is a sheer cop out to  just  say "Blame History" .  What the hell does that mean anyway?  You sound positively Hegelian in your idealism.  Your are substituting empty verbiage for concrete analysis.   Like that daft Fukuyama with his ridiculous  End of History thesis.  Do we blame "History" for the First World War or do we blame the imperialist struggle between nations over trade routes markets, resources and spheres of influence. If you don't learn from history then you are doomed to repeat itThis applies equally to failure of reformist politics to succeed in on it own terms . It has not as you claim left workers feeling more politically efficacious and empowered.  One or two minor battles  may have been won here and there but the war has been long last  Workers have not been empowered through the politics of reformism but on the contrary have been disempowered and left demoralised and disillusioned by the failure of reformism to deliver what it claimed it would.  I think you totally underestimate the extent to which this is the case and the way in which it has impact on workers.  The massive cynicism and political apathy that we see around us can be directly attributed to this failure.The "betrayals"of reformist politicians only play a part in this sorry saga insofar as the mechanics of reformist politics  requires one to place one's trust in these politicians who cannot possibly deliver on their promises.  You cannot be betrayed by those in whom  you refuse to put your trust and about whom you cultivate no illusions.  Socialists do not put their trust in politicians to sort out the problem of workers for the workers.The emancipation of the working class must be the act of the working class itself  With the best will in the world the politicians will still fail to operate capitalism in the interests workers.  This is why socialists do not talk in terms of "betrayal".  It presupposes an assumption which socialists do not holdThe real problem is not the politicians who are little more than puppets doing what the interests of capital bids them to do.  The real problem is that workers have bought into the illusion that things could be otherwise  and that capitalism could be induced though the implementation of reforms to work in their interests.  The fact  that it is demonstrably not working their interest, that society is becoming more and more starkly unequal , that workers themselves are experiencing  sometimes savage cuts to their own already meagre standard of living  to function in their own interests, that levels of stress and insecurity are rising relentless  – all of this cannot  but generate a sense of despondency and despair.   The whole strategy of refromism has had ramifications which have directly contributed to a significant sapping of the confidence of workers and in the larger scheme of things has significantly  increased their sense of powerlessness.

[robbo203]

pgb wrote:

Reformist politics hasn't led workers to a dead end. If anything, it's empowered them.

 Talking of which, here's something from Luxemburg again Now I ask: can this model be applied to our situation? No. Precisely those people who prattle on about the economic power of the proletariat overlook the huge difference between our struggle and all previous class struggles. The assertion that the proletariat, in contrast to all previous classes, leads a class struggle not in order to institute the rule of one class, but to do away with the rule of any class, is no empty phrase. It has its basis in the fact that the proletariat creates no new form of property, but only extends the form of property created by the capitalist economy by turning it over to the possession of society. Thus, it is an illusion to believe that the proletariat could create economic power for itself within current bourgeois society; it can only take political power and then replace capitalist forms of property. Bernstein criticizes Marx and Engels for applying the schema of the great French Revolution to our situation. Yet he and other adherents of “economic power” apply the economic schema of the great French Revolution to the struggle of the proletariat. http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1899/10/11.htm

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