robbo203
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I had a look at the post referred to in Libcom. The person says “But once the community is sufficiently large that it is no longer viable for an individual to know everyone else in the community, there is inevitably a Trust Problem”
It seems to me that people who argue along these lines are unconsciously projecting into a post-capitalist future, a pattern of behaviour that pertains to capitalism. Ferocious competition in capitalism certainly provides one with grounds for distrust. The expression “caveat emptor” – let the buyer beware – wasn´t invented for no good reason. According to the expression, the seller has an incentive to deceive the buyer in various ways and so the the buyer has reason to be distrustful
But of course, in a socialist society, there is no more buying and selling and the grounds for distrust disappear along with market trade itself. On the contrary, we would have a mutual interest in ensuring each other’s well-being and prosperity since our mutual dependence in such a society would become utterly transparent unlike in capitalism. In fact, even under capitalism, there is plenty of evidence that people have a tendency to trust even complete strangers. Scammers like Anna Delvey and the Tinder Swindler wouldn’t exist if that was not the case.
I think a lot of this nonsense about the inability to scale up a socialist society stems from, or is reinforced by, a misreading of what is called “Dunbars Number”. This alludes to the theory put forward by the British anthropologist, Robin Dunbar, in the 1990s that basically holds that there is a cognitive upper limit to the number of meaningful social relationships that individuals can develop with other individuals. Beyond that number, it is suggested, the human brain is simply incapable of grappling with the sheer computational complexities involved in maintaining these social relationships. Dunbar cites as examples of what he is saying various small-scale societies such as religious farming communities such the Hutterites, military units (companies), villages in 18th century England and Christmas card networks.
Of course, there is no reason to disbelieve what Dunbar is saying – that the maximum number of people with whom we can have a meaningful social relation is about 150 (though you can argue about the precise figure). The point is that it is absolutely irrelevant to the question of whether a socialist society is possible since the assumption that such a society depends on its citizens knowing each other is quite absurd and unwarranted. It doesnt.
The bit you quote seems a bit far-fetched.
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Possibly so -although it has to be said that the situation with the Assad regime is not looking good. The rebels have captured Aleppo and Hama and there has apparently been rebel activity on the outskirts of Damascus. Russia has scaled back on its support for the regime because of the Ukraine situation and of course, Hezbollah has been badly damaged in the war with Israel
Murray is basically saying there is a chance the regime may be soon overthrown. I wouldn’t rule it out completely…
Very interesting – and comprehensive – article by Craig Murray on developments in the Middle East. Also something on how it´s impacting the local Muslim community in the UK…
“A truly seismic change in the Middle East appears to be happening very fast. At its heart is a devil’s bargain – Turkey and the Gulf States accept the annihilation of the Palestinian nation and creation of a Greater Israel, in return for the annihilation of the Shia minorities of Syria and Lebanon and the imposition of Salafism across the Eastern Arab world.
This also spells the end for Lebanon and Syria’s Christian communities, as witness the tearing down of all Christmas decorations, the smashing of all alcohol and the forced imposition of the veil on women in Aleppo now.”
I think Karl Polanyi´s approach is relevant here. According to him, prior to capitalism, you couldn’t really talk in terms of such a thing as “the economy” – something that existed in some sort of stand-alone sense. Everything was mixed up – politics, culture, religion … and economics”.
The rise of capitalism marked what he called the “disembedding” of the economic domain. It came to be seen as something separate from the various other aspects of society and subject to its own generic laws of movement (the law of value etc). Adam Smith was the guy who first clearly articulated this view of the economy with his metaphor of the invisible hand of the market
Here´s a random link on Polanyi that I came across. Polanyi is quite an interesting thinker who has quite a lot of useful things to say that we could èrhaps tap into more
As Adam Buick wrote: Gates Vs Musk and I think that Bezos must be included
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Yes, its interesting you should mention Gates and Musk. As members of the parasite class they still nevertheless seem to have different agendas. For instance, Gates wants to reduce population numbers while Musk is obsessed with wanting to raise the birth rate. Why the difference? Also, Trump himself is opposed to electric vehicles, climate change and so on whereas Musk as CEO of Tesla takes a quite opposite view. Yet despite that, he is now a central player in team Trump.
It’s gonna be interesting to see how this all plays out when Trump gets in
Is Musk going to start up a bank (and possibly add even more to $314 billion fortune)? Will the banksters have even more of a field day when Trump ascends the throne?
This kind of reminds me of the Republic of Gilead in The Handmaid’s tale – only its real-life Murica (shortly to be) run by those billionaire buddies, Trump and Musk.
What is it with these right-wing nationalists with their obsession with America´s supposed population decline and wanting to turn women into broodmares? If Trump and Musk are so concerned about America’s population decline why threaten to boot out illegal immigrants? They should be opening the doors to all and sundry and encouraging more immigration if they are that concerned – surely?
Musk was recently going on about how new technology is gonna make the workers superfluous and we will all be living on UBI. So why is he so worried about depopulation? What’s the hidden agenda?
https://www.axios.com/2023/11/09/us-population-decline-down-projections-data-chart
Interesting interview though the guy being interviewed, a professor Werner, seems to subscribe to the mystical theory of banking as mentioned elsewhere on this thread ….
This type of self-satisfied thinking is definitely part of the problem.
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I agree. Although I think that, being such a comparatively tiny organisation, our future prospects are at this stage, largely in the hands of forces beyond our control (and that, for that reason, we need to develop a kind of stoic approach to our lack of progress), I can’t help also thinking that there are a number of things we could be doing to expedite that progress.
I can see the potential for progress – you just have to visit some FB groups like the one I linked to, to see this – but it’s as if there was a pane of glass that stands between us and making progress. You can clearly visualise the possibilities on the other side
There are stacks of people around who, if they are not exactly on our wavelength, are pretty close to it and it surely won’t take a lot to encourage them to join. In today’s political climate with the political Right and the death cult of nationalism in the ascendancy, a lot of people feel politically homeless
I think Rueben has started something very useful – to encourage the party to look at ways in which we can raise our profile. How can we go about doing this?
“Message to Robbo – please organise a week in Andalucia!”
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Hi Paula,
That is doable but I would need somebody, or some committee, to liaise with to begin with – the central organiser perhaps. The concept would need to be advertised within the Party. Dates have to be sorted out (time of the year can be a factor as it can get very hot here in late summer), location (rural or urban?), transportation, money arrangements etc etc. It would be nice to imagine a group size of between a dozen or two dozen to hopefully include sympathisers as well…
Just out of curiosity what do people think of the place I linked to? Believe me, it’s very remote – but there is a tiny village with a bar that is within walking distance. The Alpujarras is a beautiful part of the world, mountainous and rugged, with lots of trails to explore and not too far from the great city of Granada
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“It might not be summer sunshine in Malaga, but the crack should be canny. (there are cheap flights to Newcastle to and from Malaga Robbo, if you are prepared to cope with the cold, a warm welcome and transport from the airport is available and ham and pease puddin’ stotty may not be on the Michelin to do list, but they’re bloody lovely)”
………………………………………….Bijou,
Thanks for the offer – I might well take you up on it. It sounds a fantastic event you’ve got planned there. I’ve only been once to your neck of the woods and it would be great to revisit. Dont think I’ve ever had “ham and pease puddin’ stotty”. What is that? A sort of pie?
“I actually went to the UK camp organised by these people this year. It was a small, I think invite only, gathering of about 15 people in a country house near the Welsh borders. Days were spent with two or three workshops and presentations of texts. The rest of the time socialising and cooking a communal meal in the evening.”
That sounds nice. Of course, a “socialist summer holiday” in Andalucia would take a lot more organising and probably you would be talking about at least a week if not more to make it worthwhile. I could certainly assist with arranging accommodation and so on
If you wanted something quite remote and in beautiful countryside, here is a random example. Quite a mouthwatering prospect, I think. Check out the photos
https://inspyria.com/es/espacios-retiro/retiro-en-granada
It is often used for yoga retreats and would need a bloc booking, The location may be a bit too remote for some but there are plenty of other alternatives in the pueblos around here or even the big city itself
“Not much help to me, I know, as I live in the south of Spain but then is a socialist holiday by comrades in the UK in Sunny Spain out of the question?”
Gruppen Gegen Kapital und Nation organises summer camps in Northern Germany which attract 100-200 people each year. An English-speaking summer camp in Spain doesn’t seem that outlandish of a proposal, but would be a lot of work to organise..
______________________________________________________________–Hey DJP, Thanks for mentioning that!
Well, I seem to recall a few years ago I did actually make an offer to organise something but it wasn’t really taken up. I could still do that if people here are interested. There are some wonderful places around here that could put up maybe 2 dozen people. If you want something very remote and in the mountains I have just the place in mind! But something closer to the wonderful city of Granada is also doable
I think these kinds of social events are grossly undervalued tbh which is a pity. I still have fond memories of attending a weekend summer camp at Ken Smith´s place in Wales. Does anybody else remember that?
“In regards to the internet I once thought it would be good strategy too, but learning and seeing the control the capitalists have on it has made me sure our main point of entry is the personal touch.
Online is completely corrupted and controlled by capitalists, for every pound we spend on our promotions they can spend a thousand.”
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I wouldn’t say online is “completely corrupted and controlled by the capitalist”. It is very largely corrupted and controlled by them but that doesn’t prevent us from making an impression and getting some positive feedback ourselves, I know this is possible from my own experience. “From little acorns, big oak trees may grow” as the saying goes. You have to start somewhere and there are plenty of little starting places like the link I just provided
A further point is about the need for a more targeted or selective approach. It is a more productive or efficient way of using our limited time and resources by first approaching those who are most likely to be interested in what we have to say. At least, this would be the approach I would use as far as online activity is concerned. Distributing election leaflets is perhaps another matter….
Hi Reuben
It is certainly encouraging to hear new voices and new ideas about how to move the SPGB forward. The current state of the Party is pretty grim, if we are to be honest with ourselves, although it has to be said we are going through very strange times at the moment with the death cult of nationalism on the rise everywhere. Dip a toe into that cesspit of seething bigotry called X and you will see what I mean. It’s quite depressing….
Even in the case of Gaza that you mention, with the appalling actions of the Zionist state, the people opposing this are mostly still flag-waving nationalists ( I love that quote by Arundhati Roy: “Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s minds & then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead.”)
The thing is you have to develop a certain sense of philosophical stoicism in the face of all those depressing developments. You can’t let them get you down. There is no magic bullet that we can use that will instantly transform our circumstances since our development and fate as an organisation are largely driven by forces beyond our control.
We are not entirely powerless, however. There are things we can and ought to do and I go along with many of your suggestions.
Regarding reference to a moneyless society, I am on several FB sites that advocate for a post-money society. One is quite large with nearly 24K members. Here´s the link
Some years ago I put forward a proposal about members and sympathisers getting more actively involved on internet forums by linking to this site. A few comrades do this on a regular basis but we are nowhere near tapping the potential this approach offers. It’s a pity because most new members come via contacts made on the internet.
See this for example
https://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/search?q=ten+minutes
Another thing we could do on a much larger scale is social events and I have in mind the kind of weekend social events that Lancaster Branch has arranged in recent years. Not much help to me, I know, as I live in the south of Spain but then is a socialist holiday by comrades in the UK in Sunny Spain out of the question?
A piece on Trump in the Gruniard. Probably right to say Trump, whatever his personal inclinations, will find it impossible to install some kind of fascist regime
It will be interesting to see what happens on the foreign policy front. Probably the Ukraine situation will end sooner but tensions with China could rise. Who knows?
