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mmm…that there was some desire for something other than state capitalism or private capitalism in russia during that time is surely incontestable. one wouldn’t like to say majority, but local majorities? sure. was it physically possible? we’ll never know because the leninists made sure their way was the only way. more private was unlikely since all the cappies had run away to america to write trashy porn (“oh mister roark you hunk of entrepreneurial dobadness, do me hard over this heap of share certificates”). however, enough with the historical speculation.
part two: interestingly indeterminate. you’re mister spgb. you’re supposed to have all the answers. i guess my answer is the same as previous. start how you mean to go on. the grand scheme is fine but it depends on people being able to act independently at a local level. democratic control don’t mean nothing if there’s the old managerial structure. this has the possibility of encouraging people to break out of consumerist dependency. plus i wanna walk around in a muumuu.
instead of saying “I’m not sure” i thought i was being more definite. socialists should not take a position one way or another. one pats the various identitarian factions on the head, sympathises greatly with their real or imagined problems. and gets on with socialism. or whatever passes for it.
yes, well, everyone fucks me off. morality mongering weasels especial.
socialism in one fortress: you know as well as i do that kronstadt was merely part of a wider movement within russia at the time. as i said earlier, if you think that russia needed development of productive forces you must give lenin and stalin all the retroactive support they require. especially the tanks. lend-lease spgb tanks with special wheels to crush sailors. drive them through the time portal now.
socialism is more than simply “free access”. it depends on the workers having the ability to exercise democratic control in a more than nominal fashion. therefore, in today’s terms, whatever strengthens that ability should be promoted. although sitting on one’s arse in the woods drumming is also good.
you got me good on the ballot box!
i was meaning democracy generally though rather than the kronstadters. who, of course, weren’t anarchists. their secret ballot demand must have been the only thing they could think of to counter leninist gerrymandering. more a protest than a practical solution. secret or open, they were going to stack them.
what do i think should have been done? then as now, if you want socialism, common ownership and democratic control, you do socialism, common ownership and democratic control. never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. or the nearest best thing. if in 1921, they needed capitalism because they didn’t have stuff, then we’ll need it until we have star trek replicators (another way of saying never).
we might treat nos. 11 and 15 on the kronstadt list (peasants and artisans) as something thrown in to please old dad. the crux of the issue is no. 1: free soviets. top of the wants list. democracy as expressed through the councils.
yes, love democracy. it’s filling up my inbox. anarchist type base democracy. as opposed to sticking a bit of paper in a box.
however, individual production and free soviets and democracy were incompatible with state capitalism. if that’s the “only way forward”, you’ve got to shoot the sailors. if you’ve got to back lenin, back him.
can’t we all just take a neutral stance? gender isn’t a class issue. whatever our private foibles (and me, being a colossal pervert, i don’t half fancy half and halfs), feminism and transgender activism divorced from class (yer basic intersectionality) is bourgeois.
“any socialist content”. happen it were all about socialism. the preconditions for it at any rate. and is workers control, via the free soviets, really of no relevance? are you absolutely sure now? because i thought socialism was all about workers control. i’d say a functioning soviet was a fair bit of common ownership and democratic control. certainly more promising than the NEP.
there is a choice at kronstadt. the nep, economic development, a modern capitalist economy, with lenin the sailorkiller, gulag joe and poisoner putin. or democracy. that’s what the 15 points amount to. via workers councils not parliament.
ALB says “the only way forward for Russia…was the development of capitalism”. thing is capitalism needs blood to oil its wheels. in this case sailor blood. “ruthless” is what it takes.
did an actual response to ALB but it didn’t take. some sort of negative banter filter. gobshittery it likes, serious response no. maybe have to keep it short.
oh yeah, did post up that pic. no comments. got a “like”. i can do that on ours. and i can send personal messages like on zoom. good forum ours. and it cost nowt.
jings. what’s wrong with you? gout playing up again? kiss your good lady, your fine bairns and calm the fuck down.
and, since you said, i had to post the same picture with a call to lady aycogites to revenge the commune. i’ll tell you the response. i imagine they’ll just look at me, kind of what-the-fuckish.
and, no, normally i wouldn’t have done anything of the sort. we’re not a bloke party. you know what bought me here? the response on the transgender thread. no wonder you’re tetchy. just the sort of shit that made me jack it in. it ain’t me and it ain’t you. it’s the party innit.
“not that funny” for shure. but one would think any attempt at humour would be greatly appreciated, making a break from the self-important pseudo-intellectualism passing into plain bigotry that passes for socialist commentary these days. had an ICCabod at the meeting yesterday. outdid in self-importance and pseudo-intellectualism any SPGBer ever. he needed a visit from a petroleuse.
Cheers. That came up on my laptop but not on my tablet. These things is funny. Looks like a Party member don’t she?
Well, if you can get there, remember to bring a watering can.