Bijou Drains
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Ike Pettigrew wrote:Since socialism is contrary to human nature. you would have to change not so much the way people think and what they think, but override their thinking with the concepts, assumptions and mental frameworks that align with your ideas. In other words, basically brainwash people and turn them into autoscripted zombies – which, not coincidentally, rather reflects the cultish way many SPGB members engage with others.I am not in a state of denial about my views. The only reason for separating 'racism' and 'racialism', other than that they are two different words with separate meanings, is that 'racism' and any mention of race is, for people like you, a powerful trigger that puts you under a sort of weird hypnosis in which your thinking parts go to sleep, rational discussion becomes impossible and you turn into an online version of the real ale character in Viz, presumably with a Scotch beret and kilt on.
You insist that you are interested in logical debate, fair enough. Could you therefore explain you assertion that "socialism is contrary to human nature". To do this you would have to explain what "human nature" is and in what way it stops humans from cooperating on a large scale in their own interests. In doing so if you could also please enlighten us as to how this "immutable" human nature, did allow the change from primitive communistic society to classical slave society, the change from that society to feudalistic society and the change from feudalistic society to capitalist society. It would seem to me that if your assertion that human nature mitigates against change, then the changes I have outlined could not have been impossible.Moving on to you views on "racialism" it would also seem important to define what you mean by race. In line with this could you please outline any serious scientific writer who has writen anything which in any way supports the biological concept of race. It would seem to me that to have "racialism" i.e. immutable differences between races, it is a requirement that you are able to define what a race actually is and back this up with scientific evidence.In line with the way that logical debate runs, I would argue that if you are not able to adequately define human nature, explain how it allows only the historical changes that I have outlined, but acts as a barrier to socialism, scientifically define what is meant by the term "race", etc. then you have some transformational thinking to do.By the way "Mr Logic" was one of my favourite Viz characters, you could learn a lot from him
Hmmmm I don’t think there will be this type of problem in the Northern Powerhouse when we get our regional office. It’s a good job the industrial revolution didn’t start down south, they’d still be looking at a steam engine and wondering what would happen if they put it on rails. Fortunately my great great grandfather was around at Killingworth Pit to give Geordie Stephenson a few tips and get the ball rolling
gnome wrote:jondwhite wrote:Don't suppose there are any CDs left in HO office of the Black Flag debate to distribute at this?There may well be but unless someone can call into HO and then take them along on Saturday methinks we will have missed yet another opportunity as someone on this forum keeps reminding us. However, I know for a fact that a number of copies of our pamphlet What's Wrong With Using Parliament? will be available.
Perhaps if we had a paid worker at HO we could have said to that person, “could we have 50 copies of Dick Donnelly putting Albert Meltzer ‘s bait up please, and could you pop them in the post to Cde X who is going to this event?”
Speegy Bee wrote:Can I just offer a pensee regarding AJ's original question. What if it is in the nature of forums, messageboards and comment pages to quite naturally disappear after a certain period? They are fairly new things after all so we have yet to work out their evolution. They start off well enough ( tho not all do ). Then they gradually settle down to a hardcore of regulars, day trippers and a sprinkling of pests. After a while even the regulars get fed up and it's 'goodnight Vienna'. Perhaps this Forum has merely run its course. No need to panic.Is it really such a bad thing if they do die a natural death or even if they are deliberately put out of their misery? I think their worth is overated. You can't beat a good stand up face-to-face row with an opponent. .So let me guess, are you one of the hardcore of regulars, a day tripper, or a pest? Or even Bob Andrews in disguise
alanjjohnstone wrote:"It's the case, not the place"There is also the credibility of the messenger. A well organised, well resourced party, which is accessible in a number of different ways, can make more of its case than one which exisits only in cyber space!
alanjjohnstone wrote:i think you make a good case for regional offices to kick-start local activity. I knew Glasgow had branch premises at one time (and two branches). But neither Glasgow or Manchester or Midlands have contested elections in recent years. If local members cannot organise an election campaign, it casts a cloud over their capacity to do even more.North East and Lancaster have contested elections in recent times, perhaps with a relatively local premises more branches would feel inclined to become more active. What's the worst that could happen, we waste a bit of cash and it doesn't work out, we give it back after a year.Despite the cyber revolution, I still think the party needs real places not just cyber spaces, places to meet fellow socialists, to discuss, to socialise and to refresh. I look forward to Annual Conference being held in the North West and all of the delegates from London and the South East being delighted to find they can supp proper beer at half the price. I was thinking we could call the new premises "Moses Barritz House"
jondwhite wrote:Define transactionOne way of defining transaction:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis
robbo203 wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:alanjjohnstone wrote:What is the purpose of having premises?To hold our records. To store our archives. To mail out the Standard. To host the occasional public meeting. To accommodate our two national conferences. To act as an election office and leafleting base every several years.Now, what is the cost to us?And what could be future costs be of the above functions without using HO?I think you miss out on much of what a regional office (and in my opinion head office) should/could be used for.A physical premises can become the focal point for activity. For example Manchester Branch currently hold meetings in the corner of a pub, not ideal for business or for inviting visitors along. An office in that area would offer the opportunity to hold those meetings in a far more productive setting. As well as this a physical setting can also act as focal point for activity across a whole region. I am often in Manchester, it would be easy for myself and other comrades in the North east to visit on a semi regular visit to access party material, pick up leaflets, etc. etc. I think it is important to stress the positive impact of regular face to face contact with other socialists on individual morale and activity.If a Northern Office was set up and the equipment and systems were made available I see no reason why a member from the North could not take up a party role such as General Secretary, much more easily than is now the case. Effectively by creating a physical space in the North the opportunities for organisational involvement, (membership of committees, party officer posts, etc.) would be widened to a much greater number of party member, at a time when we are having difficulty filling these posts. I think this would have a great impact on Party morale in these regions.I have suggested Manchester as a base, there are other options, but just to point out that on paper at least, such an office would be in reasonably easy travelling distance to five exisiting branches (Manchester, Lancaster, North East, West Midlands and Yorkshire)If we took it a stage further and decideid to hold ADM or Conference at our Northern premises, that might attract sympathisers and local members to attend. It might even attract a bit of interest from the local press.The downside, well it might all fall flat on its arse. We might have spent a year's rent and on costs to achieve nothing, we might have wasted some money. If you reckon costs as a maximum of £1k a month then that's £12k and some members time and effort. Set against the possible benefits to the movement, I don't think that's much of a gamble!
Tim, if you were going to take the plunge and acquire a second premiss albeit on a rental basis might it not be a good idea to first undertake a detailed survey of branches to get some idea of what sort of commitment you could expect from members and sympathisers to getting the project off the ground and maintaining it as something viable and ongoing?
Hi Robbo, just to put your mind at ease, I haven't signed the lease paperwork yet!All I'm doing at this stage is suggesting that it might be a viable option and actually, in my opinion, simpler and more benficial than most members seem to think.I'm of the opinion that, following Lancaster Branch's Item for Discussion at ADM either a motion should be put to the next conference or a motion put to the EC to ask for a couple of volunteers to come up with a feasibility study on the idea (I'd be happy to vounteer).At this point in time all I'm pointing out is what I think are the positive possibilities of such a project. in order to encourage further discussion, perhaps I was mistaken, but I thought that was the purpose of a discussion forum.
alanjjohnstone wrote:What is the purpose of having premises?To hold our records. To store our archives. To mail out the Standard. To host the occasional public meeting. To accommodate our two national conferences. To act as an election office and leafleting base every several years.Now, what is the cost to us?And what could be future costs be of the above functions without using HO?I think you miss out on much of what a regional office (and in my opinion head office) should/could be used for.A physical premises can become the focal point for activity. For example Manchester Branch currently hold meetings in the corner of a pub, not ideal for business or for inviting visitors along. An office in that area would offer the opportunity to hold those meetings in a far more productive setting. As well as this a physical setting can also act as focal point for activity across a whole region. I am often in Manchester, it would be easy for myself and other comrades in the North east to visit on a semi regular visit to access party material, pick up leaflets, etc. etc. I think it is important to stress the positive impact of regular face to face contact with other socialists on individual morale and activity.If a Northern Office was set up and the equipment and systems were made available I see no reason why a member from the North could not take up a party role such as General Secretary, much more easily than is now the case. Effectively by creating a physical space in the North the opportunities for organisational involvement, (membership of committees, party officer posts, etc.) would be widened to a much greater number of party member, at a time when we are having difficulty filling these posts. I think this would have a great impact on Party morale in these regions.I have suggested Manchester as a base, there are other options, but just to point out that on paper at least, such an office would be in reasonably easy travelling distance to five exisiting branches (Manchester, Lancaster, North East, West Midlands and Yorkshire)If we took it a stage further and decideid to hold ADM or Conference at our Northern premises, that might attract sympathisers and local members to attend. It might even attract a bit of interest from the local press.The downside, well it might all fall flat on its arse. We might have spent a year's rent and on costs to achieve nothing, we might have wasted some money. If you reckon costs as a maximum of £1k a month then that's £12k and some members time and effort. Set against the possible benefits to the movement, I don't think that's much of a gamble!
No need for the ice bucket, 10 mins on the interweb produced the following options:html http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-to-let/property-45607750.htmlhttp://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-to-let/property-69292367.htmlhttp://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-to-let/property-69526943.htmlI'm not quite sure about this one though?http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-to-let/property-60741548.html There are literally hundreds of easy in easy out serviced office units all over the country. I personally think the North West/Manchester are would make most sense for a second premises.We could hold ADM or even conference there, attendences from areas outside of London might even increase!
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just enjoying the little bit of peace and quiet created by the absence of certain past contributors. The pleasure of not having to read or respond to the bollocks put forward by L Bird, Knob Andrex, Your man in San Franciso, etc. is a sheer joy!I must admit I was in favour of relaxed modertaion, however I have become a bit of a convert to the use of more proactive moderation.I'm sure that once we have gathered our wits and rested ourselves a little we will see a return to lively debate about issues that matter, hopefully without having to put up with all of the shite that has previously hindered debate.
I remember back in maybe 1985/86 Newcastle Branch putting forward a motion or an item for discussion about taking the idea of the WSM more seriously and really constituting a World Movement. I think this is an ideal opportunity to discuss how we could become a member based organsation on a national and international (world basis).Part of the problem, to me anyway, is that in reality there has been a history of members who really see us as the Socialist Party of London, and who viewed anyone from Watford as being a bit suspect. Although this view became extinct with the departure of the Ashbourne Court Group, it stil has organisational echoes.We need to change the mindset and move away from seeing Clapham High Street as some kind of Socialist St Peter's.The move to a member based organisational structure and the move to consider a second premises in another part of the UK, is one of the most positive things to happen in the part for may years.
