Bijou Drains
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Shellenberger promotes industrialization as humanity’s savior.
“While industrialization causes a short-term rise in carbon emissions, in the long term it’s beneficial to the environment as people move to cities, allowing farmland to revert to nature, and as prosperity enables them to switch to cleaner and more compact forms of energy.”
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Whilst completely disagreeing with the conclusions that Shellenburger reaches, I would think that the development of a Socialist, production for use society would also result in a short term, but necessary increase in environmental damage in some areas. Although a fall similar to the one we have seen in the early days of lockdown, where reduction in travel, etc. occurs, there would be an increase in other areas as we move to less envirnmentally harmful production and transport measures. This would occur because whilst newer and cleaner technology was being built, which would necessarily require the production of greenhouse gases, we would also need for a while to keep some of the older less environmentally friendly production processes running.
As in every aspect of capitalism, the environmental movement has been influenced by the vested interests and financial motivations of Capital. For instance the move towards the replacement of petrol/diesel cars and lorries with electric versions is being driven by the interests of car manufacturers, who conveniently ignore the level of greenhouse gasses which are created in the manufacture of the car in the first place. The Union of Concerned Scientists (USA) reckon that by the end of their lives, petrol-powered cars create almost twice as much global warming pollution than the equivalent electric car and that disposing of both types of vehicles (excluding reusing or recycling their batteries) produces less than a ton each. That said the actual manufacture of a either type of car is responsible for up to about 1/2 of the entire production of greenhouse gases the car will produce. Strange as it is seems therefore it is less harmful to keep old polluting vehicles on the road and trying to mitigate and retro fit them, than trying to replacing them with newer cleaner cars, lorries, buses, etc.
Obviously that logical and coordinated approach to environmental issues cannot be replicated in a market based society where the need for built in obsolecence and replacement is required and where individual financial concerns will always trump the collective requirements of humanity as a whole.
I think this in itself is proof (there is a mass of similar such evidence) that Mises diatribe on the “Socialist Calculation Debate” is built on a false premise. The idea that a Socialist society would not determine how resources could be used rationally, presupposes that captialism actually currently uses resources rationally, a premise which is demonstrably false.
For example global food production per head of global population currently runs at about the 3,000 calories per person. The recommended calorie in take per person is about 2,000 calories for women and 2,500 for men, so a rough average of 2,250 per person. Given the cost of waste, which is bound to happen we still produce enough food for everyone with a 25% over production to take into account waste, yet The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation estimates that about 815 million people of the 7.6 billion people in the world, or 10.7%, were suffering from chronic undernourishment and that whilst almost all the hungry people live in lower-middle-income countries, there are 11 million people undernourished in developed countries.
So we can see that on when looking at the main resource we need to produce, there is absolutely no rationality in the way it is distributed, leaving aside the ridiculously inefficient and polluting way food in which food is produced in a capitalist society.
But as the defenders of capitalism would say, never mind we have the important essentials covered. It is clear they would argue that any rational use of resources, any sane society indeed, would ensure that the well known all round good guy, Philip Green has access to a £120,000,000 yacht and no doubt they would argue, the fact that £9,400,000,000 of human resources have been used to build the current 20 most expensive super yachts in the world is a clear demonstration of just how well capitalism rationally distributes resources. (Those of you worrying about the impoverished conditions the super rich have to put up with on their boating holidays will take solace from the fact that the Sinot Aqua, a hydrogen-powered superyacht with an estimated price tag of $644 million is currently under production in the Netherlands, so at least one super rich family will be lifted from the dispicable conditions they currently have to holiday in)
Why do you insist on repeating this rubbish?
I think the poster is probably a “prankster” with too much time on his/her hands due to the current health situation and no friends to play FIFA with.
Looks like its going to be required to wear a face mask to go into shops. Any way we can start to sell SPGB/World Socialism face masks? I am for once being serious, I think it would be a really good way to get the message across.
there is something curious about it. Marx mentions one-pound notes but there hadn’t been any issued in England since the middle of the 1820s, a situation regularised by the Bank Act of 1833 which laid down that only Bank of England notes of at least £5 were legal tender. After that the only banks that could issue one pound notes were in Scotland and Ireland and weren’t issued in England again till 1914.
Although the Bank of England didn’t issue, I think there was still the practice of regional banks in England that were issuing notes, (a bit like the current situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland) which as I understand counted as legal money but not legal tender. I don’t know if the County Banks were able to issue notes of £1?
There is a link to some Bank of Newcastle Notes from the 1830s that are up for auction
http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Newcastle&category=1&searchtype=1
Perhaps these notes circulated enough to be a common place, which might be why Marx picked it up
Surely the best advice Elon could give any child in the Capitalist system is:
“Make sure you get born between the right pair of legs”
“preferrably in a country that gives you privilege because of the colour of your skin and where you have a father who has amassed massive wealth as an engineering consultant and as a real-estate developer, owns several mines and other natural-resources infrastructure and has a share in an emerald mine near Lake Tanganyika”
Simple enough for anyone to do!
Sadly I made the mistake of picking an Engine Driver’s daughter from Walker and a Shipyard worker’s son from Byker. What was I thinking of.
“So the cattle rustlers don’t kill farmers? They are such good people that they only sell cows into a nightmare and don’t hurt people?”
I never for one moment stated that cattle rustlers don’t kill farmers. I am fairly sure that they do, in the same way as Hindu mobs have been lynching non Hindus and Low caste Hindus over accusations of cattle theft.
What I did say was that you were using very questionable sources to back up your claims, sources which have been using the on going cattle situation in India to whip up religious hatred, Hindu Nationalism and spreading stories very akin to the Blood Libel story of the anti semitic type
In fact the wikipedia article you have linked demonstrates that it was possible to get your point across without using such disreputable sources.
So, in a comradely spirit, I will ask you again, are you comfortable using sources such as these propaganda sites, to illustrate your argument?
(Please note, there has been no mockery, jest or vulgarity in this post)
MA – I have no wish for you or anyone else to leave the party.
It is clear my unrefined Northumbrian sense of humour offends you, which is why I posted that I had no intention of returning to this debate. I will admit that at times, I can go a little further than is in good taste and if that gets on your wick, I apologise and will attempt to desist.
However, and crucially, my posting (which appears to have so outraged you) was not poking fun but was about the sites you are linking to this discussion and was not made in a crude or offensive way. It also did not comment one way or the other about how animals are treated in the Indian sub continent, it was pointing out to you that stories of villagers being killed by beef rustlers and other such stories are being propagated in India by Hindu nationalists to attempt to foment religious hatred and intolerance in India, in a similar way to Populist movements in other parts of the world. The fascistic leanings of some of these organisations are clear to see. The parallels with historic anti Semitic libels are also clear to see
The site you linked, Opindia in particular has been likened on a number of occasions an to Indian version of some of the extreme news sites in the USA.
https://www.thequint.com/news/webqoof/opindia-loses-ads-after-uk-based-stop-funding-hate-campaign
I would politely ask you to answer the following question “can you say honestly that sites like this and The Times of India (which is in Modi’s pocket) are sources you are comfortable posting links to on the forum?”
With regard to the ways in which animals are slaughtered under capitalism (whether it be in Bangladesh or in Doncaster), you will not find me defending it. I eat meat, but I know where it comes from and I know how it was treated, I know where it was bought and sold (usually Hexham Cattle Mart) and I know the small slaughterhouses that the meat came from. I don’t eat supermarket or mass produced meat, as I have posted on here many times before.
I had no intention of returning to this discussion, but I felt I really had no option but to express my concern and shock that a member of the party would be placing articles on the SPGB forum from such right wing hate promoting media sources as those placed above. As forum members may be aware there is a massive campaign of anti Muslim and Hindu Nationalism going on in India at the moment, orchestrated by Modi and the Hindu Nationalist BJB. This had had dire consequences for many Muslims with lynching and other attacks on Muslim families. Part of the Goebbels style approach is to create false stories about Muslims and them attacking inocent families to provoke anti Muslim feeling and attacks on other religios groups within India. The following story in the Guardian gives a little flavour of this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/20/mobs-killing-muslims-india-narendra-modi-bjp
And more from Couner Currents.
The source of one of the links “Opindia” has written articles claiming that Hindu children are being sacrificed in Muslim ceremonies (similar Blood Libel and WIlliam of Norwich, etc. have long formed the basis of anti semetic propaganda). Stop Funding Hate a British social media campaign, urged organisations to withdraw their advertising from OpIndia in May 2020 after the website published an article asserting that businesses should be able to declare that they do not hire Muslims. The head of the campaign, Richard Wilson, said that “OpIndia is becoming internationally notorious for its hateful and discriminatory coverage” and that the campaign has “rarely seen such overt advocacy of discrimination on religious grounds“.
Another of the sources quoted The Times of India, is noted for its practice of accepting paid news stories from politicians and also was caught on camera as part of an undercover sting operation agreeing to promote Hindutva content through the group’s many media properties for a proposed spend of ₹500 crore, some of which the client said could only be paid with black money.
For those who are not aware of it Hidutva has been described by the The Indian “Marxist” economist and political commentatoPrabhat Patnaik as “almost fascist in the classical sense“. He states that Hindutva movement is based on “class support, methods and programme“. According to Patnaik, Hindutva has the following fascist ingredients: “an attempt to create a unified homogeneous majority under the concept of “the Hindus”; a sense of grievance against past injustice; a sense of cultural superiority; an interpretation of history according to this grievance and superiority; a rejection of rational arguments against this interpretation; and an appeal to the majority based on Race and Masculinity.”
Mutual Aid I know you have your views on animal “rights” but are these really the people you want to ally yourself with???? If so you should think shame!
I would hate to think what our comrades in India would think of such postings.
Genuine question, L Bird (congratulations on the Championship by the way), when you say “Even Engels recognised that ‘matter’ was a social product.”, do you mean that Engles recognised the concept and cognitive understandings of matter were a social product and an interplay between the idealist (idea of matter) and the materialist (whatever it was that gave rise to the idea)
A beef ban sounds good to me, Bijou.
Let’s hope the beef capitalists are always kept frustrated in India and don’t ever get the horrendous mass murder of millions of cows
So the Hindus are fine, you can insight mass murder, pogroms, religious oppression and nationalism, as long as you don’t hurt the lickle fwuffy bunnies.
Well your entitled to your opinion, I’m off to gut a pheasant.
The caste system, which was an Aryan imposition on Hinduism and not native.
It was contained in the Vedic texts, how far back do you want to go????
I think the clue to your feelings about Hinduism is “Hinduism is standing in the way of the beef capitalists”
(Irony alert) Yup, I can clearly see the link to the Quakers, right bunch of violent murderous bastards, that lot.
“The elitism is often that practised by party members, who look down their noses on the masses who are as they are now, today, their beliefs, cultures, customs, religions. Such members talk about Leninist elitism, yet disdain everything that doesn’t fit with their Marxism, yet knowing very little about anything else. Millennia of Hinduism’s existence and development and diversity for a start!”
You accuse others of being elitists who look down their noses, yet here you are looking down your nose at those who “know very little about anything else”. Bit of the kettle calling the pot a dirty arse. Also making the presumption that others know very little about anything else is a pretty dangerous path to go off on, you often find that the others know far more than you credit them with.
And many Hindus, as I say above, don’t worship anyone, just revere life,
Some information about the Hindu Caste System from a Hindu website:
The Hindu caste system is unique in the world, but resembles in some ways Plato’s ideal society of philosophers, warriors and commoners. A caste is a division of society based on occupation and family lineage. Hindu caste system recognized four distinct classes or divisions among people based on these criteria and enforced it through a rigid code of conduct that was specific to each class and rooted in the dharmashastras (law books) of the later Vedic period. The four main castes recognized by traditional Hindu society based primarily on hereditary occupation are mentioned below.
- Brahmins. They are the priestly class, who are entitled to study the Vedas, perform rites and rituals for themselves and for others and obliged to observe the sacraments. They are the middle men between gods and men. The act as temple priests and invoke gods on behalf of others. They are expected to show exemplary behavior and spend their lives in the pursuit of divine knowledge and preservation of the traditions. According to Manu, the law maker, a Brahmin was an incarnation of dharma (sacred tradition), born to serve and protect the dharma. He belonged to the excellent of the human race, endowed with intelligence and knowledge to attain Brahman. He was the highest on earth, the lord of all created beings. Whatever that existed in the world was the property of a Brahmana and he was entitled to all.
- Kshatriyas. They are the warrior class, who are commanded (by tradition) to protect the people, bestow gifts to the Brahmins, offer sacrifices to gods and ancestors, study the Vedas, dispense justice, and abstain themselves from sensual pleasures. Manu laid down that it was a king’s duty to protect his kingdom and his people. He had something in himself of the gods such Indra, Vayu, Yama, Surya, Varuna, Moon and Kubera. A king should not be despised even if he was an infant. His authority should not be questioned except when he ignored his duties in supporting and protecting Brahmins. The king had the right to punish, but he must be fair in his punishment. It was king’s responsibility to protect the caste system and the social order and lavish the priests with generous gifts at every opportunity.
- Vaisyas: They are the merchant and peasant classes, who are expected to tend cattle, offer sacrifices, study the Vedas, trade, lend money and cultivate the land. They had the right to perform and participate in certain Vedic rituals but they were not allowed to marry women of higher castes.
- Shudras : The are the labor class, whose only duty is to serve the other three castes. They were not required to observe any Vedic rituals or samskaras except a few. They were not allowed to study the Vedas or even hear the sacred chants. They were not allowed to eat food in the company of higher castes or marry their women.
- Chandalas : The lowest of the Shudras were called chandalas or the impure ones. They were treated as untouchables because of their gory religious practices, penchant for sacrifices, magical rites and unclean habits. In ancient times they were not allowed to enter a village or city during day time or walk in the same street where men of other castes walked. Even their shadow was considered impure and their very sight as a bad omen. So they lived mostly on the fringes of society, unknown and uncared for, following some esoteric religion of their own and working mostly in the graveyards and cremation grounds or as hunters, butchers and professional cleaners of human waste.
A clear demonstration of the class based nature of Hinduism
I presume our comrades in India have enough trouble dealing with the fallout of religion in the sub continent without members adding comfort to religious practices
There again, this, apart from the support of class rule (joining national armies) does not necessarily imply Bijou’s conclusion.
Socialists too believe in self-defence.
So what you are saying is that what I have said, apart from the bit about class rule, doesn’t support my conclusion. So, just to be clear, seeing as I clearly used the example of Jain’s supporting class rule as the keystone of my argument, that what you are saying is that apart from the key piece of evidence I used, my evidence does not support my conclusion. This must mean that the key piece of evidence I used does, therefore, support my argument. I’ve got to say that in teerms of a counter argument, that’s not the strongest I’ve ever come across. If I were you I wouldn’t consider a carreer as a barrister.
Also I never said that I was a pacifist, I am quite happy to get stuck in if necessary, and to be honest probably sometimes when it’s probably not . My conclusion was based on countering your assertion that:
The only religion I believe has never terrorised anyone is Jainism.
It is clear that like all religions they are motiviated by ensuring that the best interests of their “spiritual leaders” and usually work in the interests of which ever section of the ruling class they think best placed to keep them in a position of power over their devotees. If you can explain to me how you can become a monarch with generals and soldiers without terrorising somebody I will be all ears. The conclusions I have come to stand, i.e. that your belief that the Jains have never terrorised anyone is wrong and also that the Jains, like all of the other religions I have encountered, are full of shit.
