Bijou Drains
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HollyHead wrote:"Power is a great aphrodisiac" (Henry Kissinger) Perhaps it's the sex they're after?
What does that say about people who join the SPGB?
ALB wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:We aren't arguing that bonobos can act like humans. We're arguing that humans can act like bonobos.That's exactly my point ! But humans are not the "third chimpanzee" but a quite different species with quite different behavioural patterns and possibilities. Our behaviour may exhibit similarities between those of chimps but that's just a co-incidence.
to say that all behavioural similarities are necessarily a coincidence is not really correct. For instance attachment behaviour, which is vital to mammal survival, can be noted in practically all mammals to a greater or lesser extent, precisely because it gives mammals who demonstrate it an evolutionary advantage.There are, however in my opinion, a few very real problems in using animal models to develop information about human psychology.Some animals in certain conditions exhibit behaviour which is similar to human behaviour, however all animals also have many behaviours that differ greatly from human behaviour and humans also exhibit behavours which differ greatly from the animals that they are compared to.Therefore using examples of animal behaviour that are ostensibly the same as human behaviours, to make inferences about behaviours of humans that that are different from the animals that are being compared (which is often what is done in animal studies) makes about as much sense as saying at certain times we behave like chimpanzees, therefore chimpanzees must be able to play scrabble.Another issue is that just because animals are exhibiting the same behaviours as humans, it doesn't mean they are necessarily behaving in that way for the same reason that humans do, there is a similar flaw in classically based studies of human behaviour, as two humans might behave in the same way, but for two different reasons.This leads on to another flaw in animal studies, which is that they can only study behaviour, any study of the cognitive factors which are influencing the animal behaviour, must necessarily be inferred from the behaviour exhibited. In contrast human based studies have the advantage that those involved can give report of the cognitive factors involved in the behaviour studied. Additionally it is clear that animal based cognitions are very different from animal cognitions, as we have the additional feature of language in our cognitions.As Vygotsky pointed out, once we become verbal not only do our relationships with others in our species change, our relationship with our own cognitions also changes, as we move to thinking primarily through the use of language, effectively we begin to have conversations with ourselves. Once this process of verbalisation begins the thought processes we can develop increase in line with the sophistication of our own internal language. As animals do not have verbal language and even if chimps and bonobos do have a form of internal speech, it is clearly no where near the level of sophisticated speech that humans have. Therefore the cognitive processes which drive behaviour must necessarily be very different in humans and chimps or bonobos.
Twford John wrote:I see why you would feel uncomfortable about Socialist Party Investments and wish to pass it off as a joke. It wasn't my purpose to embarrass you. What I am trying to get at, and I should have used a less sensitive example, is: do you believe that democracy is, as it were, a trump card. That if a majority of the membership supports a proposal, no matter how preposterous ( and a revolutionary party making capital investments does appear pretty preposterous ),then the democratic decision overrides everything else?Jim D'Arcy certainly had a bob or two. Now if only I could remember how he got all that money?oh that's right I remember, didn't he own a building company, where he employed workers and by definition paid them less than the value of their labour time? I also seem to recall a rumour that his business was prosperous because he used lumpy labour (non unionised labour that is). Perhaps Twyford John gets his name from being a plumber for D'Arcy. Has he got a mate called Armitage Shanks Fred? Pretty apt name you have there John, considering tha quality of your contribution
LBird wrote:gnome wrote:lindanesocialist wrote:Workers are starving, unemployed, homeless and landless. Reach out to them, me, us. The idealists are the past, we have our material conditions and interests to deal with. Shelter, food, clothes etc etc. LBird is a troll and a time waster.If you are not arguing pointlessly with LBird, you are attacking and suspending members trying to connect with the real issues that concern the working classMake this a workers forum and we might move forward.Head and nail come to mind…
[my bold]You have one?It's certainly not a critical one. Or active.But, that's your 'materialist' ideology in play, eh? Passive in the face of 'matter', to the end.If there are any 'trolls and time wasters' on this thread, it's those who deny Marx's 'active proletariat' creating their own world. But I wouldn't call youse 'trolls', just ignorant of anything whatsoever to do with Marx's theories. You are Engelsian Materialists, and you should be open about this, with any interested workers reading.But, you won't be. Elitists always hide their ideology from democratic workers.
there's a lady who knows all that glitters is……. oh hang on I'll get this but……. ok ……. gold and she's……….err…..buying a stairway to hum hum.
L Bird is like a person who thinks that learning to play the guitar will make s/he look windswept and interesting. So of s/he goes and spends 25 years learning to play the guitar (L Bird's timescale). The trouble is that after 25 years all s/he can manage to play is a pretty shaky version of "Stairway to Heaven". Undeterred by this fact, our noble guitarist decides to show the world the talent that s/he believes makes them a cross between Hendrix and Kossoff. Despite the less than startling receptiion her/ his little act brings our guitarist is still convinced they are a musical genius and with this in mind continues to play their piss poor version of "Stairway to Heaven" over and over again, what was once sympathy, now becomes derisio , but still "Stairway to bloody Heaven" over and over and over and over…………….The other possibility is that this thread is part of an absurdist art installation L Bird is working on and that these posts will end up being exhibited at the Tate Modern, before being sold off to the same silly fucker that bought Tracey Emin's hacky dorty scratcher
alanjjohnstone wrote:Do animals mourn and grievehttp://www.dw.com/en/do-animals-mourn-their-dead/a-19564029http://www.tynemouth.frankgillings.com/dog.htmlWllie's still in the same pub, which is known to the locals as "The stuffed dog" It's a really good boozer as well!
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:Let's simplify it for you then, Do I exist outside of your perception of me? Again a simple yes or no will do,Tim, I keep giving you the simplest answers that I can.But you're not using the same Marxist ideology as I am, about the social production of 'existence'.You want to discuss your drunken encounters with your missus, and you as an individual and me as an individual. I keep pointing this out as an effect of your 'materialism', which looks to 'biological senses' as the determiner of 'what exists'.Any answer I give is in the context of my freely exposed-to-all ideology, which is Marx's too. For example, Marx argues that 'senses are social', and so to talk about 'existence' outside of the mode of production that produces that 'existence', is meaningless.I'm trying to give you straight answers, but you just seem to ignore Marx's works – which, of course, you're free to do, but it would be better if you openly state to all, where your concern with you, yourself and your perception, comes from.I'd argue that you're simply repeating the ruling class ideas of this society, and locate your views socio-historically, whereas I suppose you'll locate the origin of your views in you.I won't keep on saying the same thing to you, Tim, so unless you start to engage in a discussion about epistemology, and its social location, then I'm going to have to stop replying to you.
I'll take your reply as you refusing to answer the question because you know the only answer you can give, which is consistent with your previous postings, (which is that I do not exist, outside of your perception of me) is clearly ridiculous.
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:Thanks for your simple answer (No). Following on from your simple answer to my simple question. I can assume that as I am made of matter, I do not exist outside of your perception of the matter that makes me up. If this is the case, and I only exist in terms of your perception of me, there are three further questions:1. What do I get up to when you are not perceiving me? As according to you my matter has no existence outside of your perception of me.2. Why are you conversing with me when I only exist in your consciousness and have no existence outside of that domain.3. When I come home pissed, yet again, can I send my beloved around to your house so you can explain that it is not me that is pissed, but rather your perception of me that is pissed, and therefore you are to blame? ( I would advise caution, she can be a bit volatile when she's vexed)[my bold]You'll have to read my post again, Tim.I was giving an answer to a political and philosophical question about 'power' within epistemology.You seem to want to persevere with your 'bourgeois individualist' concerns, like 'I' and 'me', and your biological notions of 'perception'.Since I specifically said that 'existence' is socially-produced, I don't know how you can read that as 'your existence is in my head', but I suppose with your bourgeois ideology, those sorts of beliefs are basic.But those ideological beliefs of yours are not mine (nor Marx's).And who told you that you are made of 'matter'?And why not 'energy'? Your ideology is 19th century, Tim. As are your 'assumptions'.
Let's simplify it for you then, Do I exist outside of your perception of me? Again a simple yes or no will do,
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:A simple question for L Bird, which mirrors one you posed to another poster earlier and which should hopefully elicit a simple yes or a no.Do you believe that matter has an existence independent of your perception of it?A very simple and reasonable question, Tim.The answer is 'No'.Marx argues that the opposition to 'consciousness' is 'inorganic nature'.Engels thought (given his social circumstances and influences) that this meant 'matter'.According to Marx, 'matter' is a social product, which we can change, rather than, as the bourgeoisie allege, we contemplate.We could expect, if we were Marxists, that 'matter' could change (because it is a social product) to… errr… for example… errr… to… ermmm… 'energy'.So, some societies, from inorganic nature, produce matter.Other societies, from inorganic nature, produce energy.For some, 'inorganic nature' is 'matter'; for others, 'inorganic nature' is 'energy'. We have to choose.For us socialists, employing Marx's ideas, we can situate the social production of organic nature (nature-for-us) in socio-historical context. That is, we regard 'organic nature' as a social product, related to the 'mode of production' that produces it.So, to summarise, 'matter' is a social product (which we can change), and 'matter' has no 'existence' outside of our social production.'Existence' is produced.That's why we do not have to simply, passively, discover, contemplate 'matter', but can change 'it'.Bourgeois physics today is behind Marx in 1845.Theses on Feuerbachhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/theses.htm
Thanks for your simple answer (No). Following on from your simple answer to my simple question. I can assume that as I am made of matter, I do not exist outside of your perception of the matter that makes me up. If this is the case, and I only exist in terms of your perception of me, there are three further questions:1. What do I get up to when you are not perceiving me? As according to you my matter has no existence outside of your perception of me.2. Why are you conversing with me when I only exist in your consciousness and have no existence outside of that domain.3. When I come home pissed, yet again, can I send my beloved around to your house so you can explain that it is not me that is pissed, but rather your perception of me that is pissed, and therefore you are to blame? ( I would advise caution, she can be a bit volatile when she's vexed)
A simple question for L Bird, which mirrors one you posed to another poster earlier and which should hopefully elicit a simple yes or a no.Do you believe that matter has an existence independent of your perception of it?
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:Young Master Smeet wrote:lbird wrote:So, if a democratic vote is not 'binding' (in some sense), what's the point of it?Exactly!
then presumably we would need a vote on the vote on the result of the vote, followed swiftly by a vote on the vote…………..
I'm not sure what point you two think that you're making, other than, according to you, democracy is pointless and voting is a process without an end product.I don't think arguing this about 'democracy' will gain you any members of the SPGB from amongst those workers looking for answers about 'democratic socialism'!This standpoint is not only opposed to democracy in science, but also to democracy in politics.But… I'm sure you two will claim to have a 'special consciousness', that allows you two to 'know' the product of 'science'.Otherwise, it's the death of any notion of 'science', even a bourgeois elitist one.
Don't get angry with me, let's face it I don't have an existence outside your perception of me. If it's anyone to blame, surely it's you. I am merely a socially construced scientific theory that you have about me, and I would say that as you are conversing with me, without first subjecting your theory of the existance of me to a democratic vote, you are demonstrating dangerously elitist practices! Shame on you!
Young Master Smeet wrote:lbird wrote:So, if a democratic vote is not 'binding' (in some sense), what's the point of it?Exactly!
Lbird wrote:There is still only 'one part' in society: the producers.But, clearly, any democratic vote produces two 'parts': the thing voted for, and the thing voted against. This is nothing to do with Marx's point in his Theses on Feuerbach, about an elite which 'outranks' the producers, in the decision-making process.The same could be said of a Leninist vanguard. In fact, the ame could be said of genius materialists who know the truth no-one else knows, as long as they are still producers.A vote also produces the people who voted for, and the people who voted against. The winners and the losers, one part of society will have access to reality, another part will be denied it.And I'll re-phrase that 'meaningless' bit.The majority, in your theory, is still an elite. That is not wordplay, that the facts. There is nothing in the definition of elite that requires it to be a minority.And, as we've discussed before: how can we know the result of a vote if the only way to find out the truth is to have a vote? We'd have to vote on the result of the vote.
then presumably we would need a vote on the vote on the result of the vote, followed swiftly by a vote on the vote…………..
Twford John wrote:I see why you would feel uncomfortable about Socialist Party Investments and wish to pass it off as a joke. It wasn't my purpose to embarrass you. What I am trying to get at, and I should have used a less sensitive example, is: do you believe that democracy is, as it were, a trump card. That if a majority of the membership supports a proposal, no matter how preposterous ( and a revolutionary party making capital investments does appear pretty preposterous ),then the democratic decision overrides everything else?I see no reason why a Socialist Party should feel uncomfortable about making capital investments.We bought our head office many years ago and and the value of the property has risen consideably. Are you suggesting that we should have not made that capital investment and paid rent, or do you think that we if and when the property is sold we should only sell it at a price that reflects the price we paid adjusted for inflation?Similarly we have retired members who no doubt have pensions partly paid by investments in stocks and shares, should they disinvest, or should we not accept any monies donated by them.If we have capital and we can use it to increase the money we have to plough into revolutionary activity, why should we not? We are not a bunch of moralistic zealots who are attempting to live a socialistic life within the capitailist system, wearing hair shirts and beating our backs with wet copies of Das Kapital. We are realists who realise, that unfortunately we have to live in a capitalist world. If we can subvert some of it to increase revolutionary activity, all well and good!
twc wrote:The SPA case, as quoted above, is the only socialist position.The Party has only one Object. Its Object and Declaration of Principles leave no room for doubt.It is a mug’s game for the Party to attempt to administer capitalism in the interests of the working class.The Party case is that nobody—not even the Party—can run capitalism. Otherwise what on earth is its case against reformism?The Party case is that capital runs capitalism.Do you really think that anyone—including the Party—can steer capitalism in working class interests?Do you really believe it possible?that's not what I said, nor is what I said, in my opinion, contrary to the position established by the party in the wake of the W B of Upton Park dispute in 1911
Surely this whole debate is a nuanced rerun of the Upton Park debate (incidentally does that now become the Olympic Stadium debate?). If referendums are held where real decisions are being made that impact on the lives of workers then surely, in the same way as Socialist delegates to parliament would do, Socialists would make a decision based on what was felt to be in the best interests of workers. If there was a referendum on increasing the pay of ancillary staff in hospitals, I assume the vast majority of Socialists would vote in favour. Similarly if referendums were to be used as a democratic way in which workers could control even small aspects of their lives on a local level, would that be something we should abstain from? If for example a local council put the question of whether a local park should be used as a children's football pitch or turned into a golf course, would it be anti socialist to take part in a decision making process that could be used as an example of the value of participatory democracy?
