alanjjohnstone
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No doubt in your wide reading you have come across this writer. https://www.marxists.org/archive/deville/1895/state.htm . Has the debate really progressed since 1895 , or keep going around and around "Therefore,let us not confound State socialism with the infiltration of socialism into the State, and let us endeavor to increase this infiltration as much as possible until socialism shall be mistress of the State. That day will be, not the last day of the State, but the first day of the last phase of its evolution.The disappearance of the State, as I have said, implies the disappearance of classes, i.e., the previous modification of social conditions. This modification must be brought about by law, and it is this legislative task that the socialist State will have to accomplish. Between the time when the class-conscious majority of the proletariat, the socialist party, shall take possession of the State in order to give practical effect to its programme, to realize the suppression of classes, and the time when that suppression shall be actually accomplished, there will be an intervening period which will be the socialist phase of the State. During this period, the State will be as always government by a class, but it will be government by that class by which classes, henceforth useless and detrimental, will be suppressed.In the hands of the socialist party or – what is the same thing – of the organized proletariat, the State will have to regulate the situation of persons and material wealth on the basis of the socialization of capitalist property, and it will control and adjust this situation through the instrumentality of the law. It will act just as the State acted in the last century[28] in the case of the property of the nobility and the clergy, just as the present State acts. It is a tradition of the Revolution that what a law has done a law can undo, and that there is no possible appeal from the decision of the legislative body.When the socialization of capitalist properly shall have been effected, and legally effected, there will no longer be any economic subordination of some to others, there will be no more classes, and the State, made a necessity by the existence of classes, can at last be suppressed or, rather, it will disappear of itself when it shall have accomplished its task of transformation.This is not equivalent to saying that the socialist society will have no organization. But the future social organization, when antagonistic classes no longer exist, when constraint no longer has to be exercised over some for the benefit of others, will not be a State any more than the means of production will be capital after they shall have lost the power of exploiting the labor of others, or than the future remuneration will be what we call wages when it shall no longer presuppose surplus-labor. These two latter changes will be the result of the suppression of the character of capital which is to-day stamped upon the principal means of production.It is needless for me to talk of the future organization, and I limit myself to pointing out the general lines along which it will develop. In the transition period in which the transformation will be accomplished through conscious adaptation of measures to facts, there will still be a State, but that State will be a socialist State. In the following period, the political rule of the men who constituted the State in the transition period, will have become a business administration of affairs, Instead of government there will then be simply a business administration. Therefore, we must work without ceasing to elect more and more socialists to office, to permeate and saturate the State more and more with socialist ideas, until, in the hands of the socialist party or the class-conscious, organized proletariat, the State with all its powers, and especially that of law-making, becomes the instrument, which it is destined to be, of the economic transformation to be accomplished. When that transformation is completely accomplished, there will then be, instead of persons to be constrained, only things to be administered, and on that glorious day there will still be a social organization, but it will no longer be a State.
i see the Ukrainian ex-president is now being indicted for crimes, and taking in account the trial of Morsi…how come we have such a problem (or reluctance) putting Blair in the dock?
“In the instance of an occupied factory or any workplace it wouldn't be with the idea of running it as before under capitalist "workers' control"…My idea isn't for workers' to run anything along capitalist lines.” How else can an enterprise run except along capitalist lines. I was responding to your hypothetical scenario of a factory closure within capitalism. Except a few rare cases occupation would inevitably lead to disillusionment, it would be just a matter of time scale.—-…. "Like union bosses calling off strikes even when workers have voted for them."….— I experienced a spate of official and unofficial strike action when i worked. We would hold almost daily union meetings but the one that was always the most eagerly attended was the return to work meeting, even more so that the actual one calling for the strike. I seldom encountered those rejecting the union leader's recommendation or the shop stewards' when it was a wildcat strike. It always personally angered me that you see not hide or hair of some of your colleagues on the picket line but when it came time to settle the strike they turned up in droves chewing at the bit to vote for the end of the strike… …Perhaps your experience has been different but we all know that the most successful strike is the one that was not needed because the threat and the ballot result for it was suffice as a negotiating weapon. The power of the vote again, in a different aspect.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/22000-a-call-to-develop-a-worker-cooperative-sector-in-new-york-city-how-the-city-can-create-jobs-and-address-inequality-at-its-rootsAnother "radical" call for co-ops. " "If worker cooperatives are so great, why aren't there more of them?" Panelists discussed four necessary components for growing the worker cooperative economy: increasing technical and legal expertise available to start-up co-ops; better access to capital to start and grow businesses; a legal framework that encourages co-op development; and the development of a culture of support for democratic workplaces." Why not be an entrpeneur and make a business out of "mentoring" co-ops? "Omar Freilla, founder of Green Worker Cooperative, stated that there is a need for more professional co-op developers" But in the end the conference calls for the capitalist state to create and finance co-ops.
Chomsky has been particularly active recently advocating to the American worker to do exactly as that in regards to the Detroit car industry citing Mondragon as the way to go – take control – so many are in good company.I suppose the difference for us is that the immediate reason , loss of job and income spurs the action , not the struggle for a new society. We are accused that our support for trade unions is for an organisation that has accommodated itself with capitalism, but wouldn't that be exactly the same with a workers occupied factory that was taken over simply to make it more "economic" within capitalism and save jobs. They'll do exactly as it did before…look for markets…look for cost-cuts…So a workers council aspires to do more successfully what a corporate board of directors do, run a successful business. And if it fails, which i think 90% would from past evidence (but that is always arguable and i stand to be corrected) the political factor is the disillusionment may lead to the conclusoon that it is not capitalism at fault but workers are not capable of being in charge…we need the despotism of one man management which Lenin and Trotsky insisted upon for efficiency.As we said about nationalisation if it is done in the name of revolution and socialism , its failings are ascribed to the revoution and socialism. So yes a bread and butter issue transforms into politics, how can it not? But the effect can be a negative politics as well as a positive one. On the soviets and the SPGB approach to history, in debates on Libcom, i have disagreed with some groups understanding of the actual history and have touched on those differences here as why on this thread it is perhaps none to wise to start quoting history. It deserves a debate on its own the origin and developmemnt of soviets (and the factory committees which are related but a separate thing.) The way decision making may express itself goes back earlier than 1905. Kropotkin and Bookchin discuss the French Revolution section general assemblies (and also for Bookchin the New England town meetings), Marx – the Paris Commune. In the 20s we had the CP try to turn the local trade councils into soviets. Between a workers council and a neighbourhood assembly , just which has primacy? The locl versus the regional? These questions will arise in practice. The application of democracy is a worthwhile debate but i think as we all know now, there exists different analysis based on different emphasis rather then out and out opposition of opinion in principle.
Perhaps you should place your observation at the article's comment section which will clarify our position in the way you think it requires. And also to demonstrate to the website owners that Janet's article is drawing an audience which will assist her if she wishes to post future articles.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/21/venezuela-beyond-the-protests/In regards to Venezuela, i think this list has been fairly guarded on commenting due to our well justified scepticism of Chavism and the so-called Bolivarian Revolution, and we have been suspicious of Madura's rhetoric of blaming the USA and his supporters on the left in the UK and elsewhere are also suspect at manipulating facts to present the Veneuelan government in a good light. But i think overall that the protests there too are being manipulated by vested powers and that just as the US was exposed in Ukraine of interfering, the role of it attempting regime change in Venezuela is overwhelming. Over the ten year period, from 2000-2010, US agencies, channeled more than $100 million dollars to opposition groups in Venezuela. Over one third of US funding, nearly $15 million annually by 2007, was directed towards youth and student groups, including training in the use of social networks to mobilize political activism. Student leaders were sent to the US for workshops and conferences on Internet activism and media networking. Obama included $5 million in the 2014 Foreign Operations Budget for opposition groups in Venezuela. And it appears that the recent outbreak of protests are in response to the fact that the December town council elections once more resulted in a pro- government majority, something that is not widely revealed in media reports. 242 out of 317 mayoralties were won by the PSUV. Out-voted in the presidential elections, out-voted in local elections, the Right took to the streets and a helpful world media is misrepresenting the protests. (A caveat being that indeed there is also pro-government probably officially sponsored vigilantes at work too. No one says that Madura is a saint) In Thailand it is indeed a battle of the oligarchs as well but Thaksin's faction introduced a free health service (and i can personally vouch for its benefits in the rural north east), extended free education (less impressed by that even if 7" tablets were distributed to most kids..,a misdirection of resources, btw) , provided guaranteed prices to the rice farmers and people voted for them – repeatedly, and in droves. So the opposition has chosen to declare the end of bourgeois democracy and that the people cannot any longer be trusted to vote the way they want them to. As you say ALB much the same as the left anti-parliamentarians…people aren't voting the way we want for revolution – lets do away with the vote…birds of a feather…same bed-fellows. Universal suffrage is too valuable to hand over to our class enemies to dispense with when and where they choose to. And to participate in the process is a worthy expression of our adherence to democratic principles…even if we never come close to winning. But we still protect the possibility of it.
This is a good analysis on Ukraine and the constitutional crisis it now faces. It too expects as YMS earlier suggested, the break up of Ukraine as a country. http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-crisis-eu-washington-plan-282/ As for ALB's comment on the Right, we have historic examples of Mussolini's successful March on Rome and Hitler's less than successful Munich Putsch, a replay of the Left's futile 1921 March Action
NIMBY CEO of ExxonMobil – the top producer of natural gas in the US – has joined a lawsuit that challenges the construction of a water tower connected to hydraulic fracturing operations near his Texas home, given that it may reduce the property value.CEO Rex Tillerson claims the hydraulic fracturing – or fracking – project will cause unwanted noise and traffic associated with trucking water from the 160-foot tower to the drilling site that may result in the possible depreciation of his $5 million property. Tillerson himself described fracking regulations as "dysfunctional" and "holding back the American economic recovery, growth, and global competitiveness.” http://rt.com/usa/exxon-ceo-fracking-lawsuit-180/
No, let's not go to extremes. ALB. Let them by all means get a job in the same factory and then get elected to the local trade union positions and then dissove the branch and become autonomous as trade unions in the workplace are 'counter-revolutionary' according to many Left Communist arguments i have read and instead hold daily, weekly workers assemblies…and see what happens.A much more interesting experiment and a practicable one, once the problem of convincing the work-force to elect them is resolved. If it spreads to other work-places then indeed the question has been answered that such a manner of organisation is more reflective of workers wishes and more effective in producing gains so it can be more widely advocated . If, on the other hand, management grows stronger and imposes it will easier… we will know trade unions with all their faults do have a constructive role as a counter-balance.
It seems we are all quoting from the same source. In message #11 and #13 i recommend some links which may well be the same as #22 and certainly the same political organisation, the Autonomous Workers Union, which is organised in Kiev and Harkov with about 40-45 members, who aspire to be a IWW-type union although far off that goal. Perhaps we should try contacting this group directly as they are on the ground physically…unlike the other link KRAS who are a Russia based group of the Anarchist InternationalStrange how Obama and the EU pick and choose which government uses excessive force to suppress protests? I can just imagine the reaction of Fox TV if the Occupy Wall St started firing rifles at police when their camp was dismantled and abducted police and politicians and held them as hostage and the Russian foreign minister turned up to encourage the OWS protesters. Cant and hypocrisy.It seems to be a trend right now of oligarchs deciding control in the streets. Here in Thailand the Bangkok protests continue with the 'peaceful' protests includes chucking hand-grenades at the riot police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiAGXAKC7n4
ALB and others, myself included, at times, would say the losses could have been minimised by reaching a settlement earlier and that the knock-on effect of the defeat would not have been as severe. No one is apportioning blame to the miners but questioning the wisdom of the negotiating skills of the key players in the NUM executive. I have already shown that the media representation of accusing Scargill is off- target and where my own sympathies lie , but it takes two tango. A general has to know when to beat a retreat in an orderly withdrawal before it turns into a rout. The same battles in the class war is played out over and over. We had INEOS Grangemouth strike where the union recognised the balance of forces lay with the employer and yielded so to fight another day, hopefully. Would the outcome have been any different if as i speculated Mick McGahey was president of the NUM. Who can say?But i wonder how many miners or other workers believed that the subsequent consequence was not the closure of certain pits but the end of the industry and the end of the NUM as a union? I don't think this was foreseen. Hindsight is always easy but we make our decisions in the circumstances that are known at the time.
Janet Surman has had another excellent article on ending wage slavery and abolishing money posted on this website that carries many international stories and political analysis. http://www.countercurrents.org/surman210214.htmAn example of spreading our message and drawing attention to ourselves to an audience which may not have heard of the WSM. The website has comments facility if you wish to.
Vin , we should not hide from the consequences of the defeat. It set back the general trade union movement for a decade. It didn't act as a spur for more industrial action but increased reluctance to use the strike weapon. But i am not saying they didn't accomplished great things staying out for a year, women in the mining communities organising themselves ….etc But there is no glory in defeat no matter how valiant the loser was. It was not until the mid 90s that the British trade unions recovered their confidence to strike officially and unofficially when the postal workers entered a phase of militancy. Eventually they too began suffering defeats after a spell of success and as we witness cannot hold back the power of the State. We should not wallow in defeat but learn and what the postal workers learned from the miners strike was to use your strengths and not to try an all out strike as the postal workers did in 1971 but carry out a guerrilla one -day, two day strikes (particularly the wildcat ones) spread across the country relying on the blacking of the trapped mail to achieve our concessions.
