alanjjohnstone
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i had to look up the 6th Republic reference. Was hoping it would be similar to the Third Revolution…alas, not.My purpose in raising over the past months the left wing response to the recession and to politics in general was to explore whether there was a qualative change in all these developments. Had they taken the lessons of Occupy/ Indignados and began to apply them…again , alas, not. It has not been the Left who have been benefiting from workers unhappiness and discontent but the nationalists, patriotic and separatist. Sad to see that ND thought they should appropriate their imagery and try to emulate them. The Left are going around in circles , returning to the populism of the 30s, replace a few words, a few phrases and its back to resurrecting the dead I'm struggling to suggest an alternative strategy. Is there one? You have reminded us that the words socialism and revolution have returned to common currency but somehow i think the words have changed. As usual i have been scouring the Marxist Archive site and revolutionary words …wage slavery …were much more in common usage…they didn't mean low wages as it is so often applied these days …they meant literally slavery…in fact i could and have re-worked articles that are not out of place in contemporary times. Even in the environmental movement those who share our vision are still out-worded by reformists.If only we could make a real impression by creating unity with the minority who do understand capitalism and why it and the state won't bring a solution. I wonder if we are fully playing to our strength in this area. I can see a possibility of a real anti-capitalist alliance and as it is with individual environmental activists , not covered by a hostility clause. Maybe we should host a conference, and yes , even pay the expenses of invited speakers…there are after all just a handful but they do have more influence than we do. …not a serious idea…just something to think about…
I think that was exactly what Marx was saying, LBird …a social product.Vin said his opponent claims to be some Marx expert, i simply suggest he demonstrates his protagonist's knowledge of Marx is limited and his interpretation of Marx is wrong by using Marx. I think this is the relevant part. I am sure there are experts out there on Marxist Holy Scripture who can direct Vin to other chapters and verses. "Let us take, first of all, the words "proceeds of labor" in the sense of the product of labor; then the co-operative proceeds of labor are the total social product. From this must now be deducted: First, cover for replacement of the means of production used up. Second, additional portion for expansion of production. Third, reserve or insurance funds to provide against accidents, dislocations caused by natural calamities, etc. These deductions from the "undiminished" proceeds of labor are an economic necessity, and their magnitude is to be determined according to available means and forces, and partly by computation of probabilities, but they are in no way calculable by equity. There remains the other part of the total product, intended to serve as means of consumption. Before this is divided among the individuals, there has to be deducted again, from it: First, the general costs of administration not belonging to production. This part will, from the outset, be very considerably restricted in comparison with present-day society, and it diminishes in proportion as the new society develops. Second, that which is intended for the common satisfaction of needs, such as schools, health services, etc. From the outset, this part grows considerably in comparison with present-day society, and it grows in proportion as the new society develops. Third, funds for those unable to work, etc., in short, for what is included under so-called official poor relief today."……Just as the phrase of the "undiminished" proceeds of labor has disappeared, so now does the phrase of the "proceeds of labor" disappear altogether."Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. The phrase "proceeds of labor", objectionable also today on account of its ambiguity, thus loses all meaning."
Vin , go to Marx and Gotha and i think he explains there that it is impossible for the worker to get back 100% of his value in a wage. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
SP, we have rules that apply to party members.We have rules that are specifically to avoid conflicts of interest. "No parties to the charge or dispute shall be allowed to sit as Delegates or Chair at Conference, ADM or any EC meeting where the case is being reviewed." We have rules where a member can be charged with action detrimental to the party, that may well be evoked from the nature or content of any criticism of the party. We even have a rule that covers a member who may unfortunately go senile or perhaps just temporarily mentally ill, who is made an honorary member but with certain rights withdrawn. We also have a rule for ex-members re-joining who are excused the knowledge test although reasons for originally resigning are usually asked. Sometimes not. All acceptances for membership must be ratified by the EC and possibly this could be refused. We have a rule that "Any application [for membership] rejected by the Branch shall be forwarded to the EC together with the reasons for the rejection." and the branch may possibly be over-ruled if the reason is not supported by the EC. It now may seem reasonable that we now devise a rule to cover applicants who are refused membership by the EC, offering an appeal to conference/ADM possibly. Perhaps we won't from fear of potential abuse of the procedure…(think about it)What you i think are trying to impose upon us is that we should have rules for NON-members. That would be a historic first for any organisation or party.
SP "Or perhaps there are mind readers or clairvoyants in the party after all."Already answered way back at Message #143 by myself "We are not sooth-sayers and cannot foretell a person's future, nor do we hold a person's past against them. We argue that people can change. We judge them on what they say, but more importantly, on what they do, in the present now. "And regards to YMS comment that we decide some matters on the balance of probabilities, i reached my decision based on several months of satisfactory internet behaviour in debate on these forums by Vin and as i said in that message, particularly when he was vehemently disagreeing with others, which i think satisfies YMS test for probability and should others.
I tried to watch Bambery video but had to stop . He was making a very successful businessman's case for devolution. Economic growth…and i suppose workers gain from the trickle down effect because of it. He went on citing Alaska that had to bribe the people with an annual pay-off for permitting oil pipelines to crisscross pristine wilderness as an example to emulate. He promoted the Norwegian Sovereign Fund and ignored just where they invested their oil money …dictatorships like the ex-soviet-stans for the high returns, naturally. Not read his book and unlikely to but since the Scottish working class only grew after the union it is difficult to separate them. Our socialist courier blog highlights the failure of independent unions in scotland with a CP front breakaway unionhttp://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2012/05/red-union.htmlThe link you gave makes a brief mention of Jacobites as our own bloghttp://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2012/05/right-proper-charlie-he-was.htmlAnd the clearance were instigated by Scotshttp://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2012/05/clearing-away-scots.htmlSadly, the Socialist standard couldn't publish a full socialist version of Scots history just a few highlights
"the EC communicating with the party." Well , the way things are going it may well end up communicating with the party with an upturned glass and a ouija board… but i'm known for my doom and gloom…I would have however have thought that this lively forum exchange of over 200 posts was doing just that…communicating the 'feelings' of some of the party. Not all are members of it But as YMS said we have branch meetings which may well discuss and decide to present their opinion for the next EC meeting to weigh up.
"Surely the EC should see itself as the 'mind of the party' (and attempt to discern the wider mood on any issue), rather than the rather narrower (and less democratic) mere sum of its own individual preferences?"Surely you are walking the tightrope of the EC substituting itself for the party. (i know you probably don't mean this)We have however ensured that it does not happen by forbidding constitutionally it such powers as to put forward in the name of the EC motions to conference or to decide on policy that it may "see" as being in the party's interest. We have in place party-polls to present members feelings. Now you wish the EC to be a mind-reader!!The Gen Sec is elected in a procedure that reminds me of a huntergatherer tribe who selects its chief by locking them in a hut until somebody eventually cracks and volunteers to be chief. Each individual member of the party and not just a EC member is a reflection of the "spirit", the "soul" or the "mind" of the Party. He or she carries that shared consciousness, knowingly or unknowingly, with him or her into every role conducted on behalf of the party. Belonging to the party is more than just card-carrying, as you can see by the determination of Vin to become a member.
SP, Just to speculate on the extent we could practice our democracy, we have trialled EC members participation via Skype with i think a degree of success. I'm not sure if we have experimented with them being broadcast. Each EC meeting ends with the nomination of the rotating chairperson. We could do as Adam suggests and have an EC chosen by lot from all our members online or have access who wish to volunteer. Naturally the difficulty would be maintaining continuity on some issues that are spread over time but by members' constant scrutiny of more extended minutes and "sitting in" as EC meeting are broadcast on Skype this could be overcome.But it is in realms of speculation right now. There may be a few snags with the old-fashioned way but they are NOT fundamentally flawed, despite what is being claimed. We have one situation that has a long history and much has been time devoted to resolving it. We have already been notified that the issue will be continued at the next EC meeting. Our problems are not on par with other organisations and some will claim the problem is one of too much party democracy and transparency. As for over-representation from one branch, i think it is inevitable without video participation. Although we have provincial members on the EC, times of travel often mean late arrival or early departure. It is also helluva expensive paying train fares. More use of Skype has to be considered if we re to get a full geographical spread of representation on the EC. But we do successfully have involvment of non-London/Home County members in a number of committees and departments.
"Salmond has said it would be "very foolish" to rely on promises of more powers for the devolved Scottish Parliament ahead of the referendum."Indeed, this is exactly what i say in regards to Salmond's pledges of more powers to the Island councils. "the Scottish first minister said the parties had "form" "And indeed Salmond already has his own form for over-ruling local democracy when he feels other issues "Trump" them on the golf course!"Salmond reiterated his belief that the referendum was a "once in a political generation" event."Politician's talk that if the referendum goes against independence, when he thinks he can win there will be another later referendum appealing to another new "political generation" Sadly Scottish independence is not a question that will disappear with a No Vote. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27753059
As Cde Buick has informed the EC that he will endeavour to have the refusal of membership to Vin rescinded at the next EC i simply wish to state that i support his move.That period of internal strive did no-one any credit and i don't exempt my own contribution to the bad feeling.Vin, i believe, recognised and has acknowledged that after his departure he did post some unwise messages on forums. Although during my period of non-party membership there was no internet i too plead guilty of criticising the party in unfair terms and at a personal level. The behaviour since he once again began regularly contributing to the forum has shown that he has indeed mended his ways in regard to how to react to disagreements on threads in a comradely fashion.I do not think it will benefit to go over past ground and dispute what or what did not take place. Apologies have been offered, one protagonist has departed the party, but more importantly there has not been a recurrence of the bitterness. The moderation of the forum has also now become more precautionary as a result of it. Let bygones be bygones. Water under the bridge. The party as a whole and the members as individuals have learned a lesson on internal democracy and how best to express it. It was a painful lesson for some but i think we should now move on and welcome Vin as a returning comrade to the party.We are not sooth-sayers and cannot foretell a person's future, nor do we hold a person's past against them. We argue that people can change. We judge them on what they say, but more importantly, on what they do, in the present now.
SocialistPunk wrote:I wonder, could the hostility between the French and British, that is often jokingly referred to, stem from this period of the second world war?I think it may go back to Agincourt! and later the Napoleonic Wars. Of course, the Scots exempt themselves from this anti French sentiment by referring to the "Auld Alliance" even though at times it was considered more an Occupation by French troops by the Presbyterian faction. Regards to the WW2, we also have history re-written by British historians about Dunkirk. While delegating the rear-guard action to protect the retreat on the beaches to the French army , the British commanders failed to inform the French that it was indeed an evacuation maintaining this pretence with a diversionary reinforcement of British troops i think at Cherbourg as a sacrifice (an earlier Normandy Invasion readily forgotten), The British only belatedly agreed to take French troops in the Dunkirk rout when their real intentions were found out.For soldiers of the defeated BEF there were no special medal issued. To paraphrase Jon Brown, in war winners are remembered, losers are forgotten.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-27732503You will note that in the photos it is not the Scottish Saltire flag the protesters carry but Shetland's own flag, a sign, i think of, of rising localism..If in the case of Yes independence vote, Shetlanders as they did in 1979 vote contrary to the majority of Scots and demand status of a crown dependency (IOM, Channel Is,) then the major plank of the SNP case falters…North Sea oil most productive wells are not Scottish but Shetland's.They would also be in a stronger position than even an independent Scotland that would be still be a monarchy. The Scottish the sea shore is crown property whereas it is recognised that Shetland ( even if it still retained the queen as would Scotland) , the shoreline is under local control under Norse Udal law, upheld by the highest courts in Scotland. Our own blog Socialist Courier long ago raised this "independence" prospect before local Island councillers themselves began to co-ordinate a case for Island Devolution which of course Salmond is publically accepting now but i am damn sure will renege upon in a "free scotland"http://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2012/01/independence-for-shetland.htmlOther blog posts athttp://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/?q=shetland(The fact that my late mother was a Shetlander and this may possibly entitle me to a Shetland passport to add to my present UK, and a possible future Scottish passport so to provide me with a total of three to help overcome all the visa regulations i presently come up against is not clouding my sympathies in anyway )
If they read our blog they would have known.http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2009/06/remembering-d-day.htmlBut D-Day was all a pointless unnecessary invasion that took a gamble and luckily avoided a catastrophe …for no military or strategic reason …simply to court Uncle Joe's freindship and a bit of American prestige.see here http://www.socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-needless-d-day-to-remember.html
