alanjjohnstone
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Challenging the owners.We had Man Utd a while back organising opposition to their owners. Blackpool fans are busy doing the samehttp://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/may/02/karl-oyston-blackpool-tangerine-nightmare-stan-mortenson
Your points are well taken (by coincidence my very general view has just been posted on the Brand thread to your post there before i came here and saw this)I think you should quickly re-join, SP.The problem with the thread at the moment is that is has no official or collective legitimacy at the moment, members/sympathisers sounding off . There is no obligation to read it much less post on it. I think we have to use our democraatic structure…committees, EC and branches to urge and report on the future thread and therefore ensure that it is conducted in accordance with our democratic principles and traditions and give it a credibility that you me and a few others exchanging posts simply don't possess.Save your suggestions (i often forget things i have posted) and re-introduce them and of course add to them and elaborate on them when we are properly up and going. As BrianJ said, let's see what our appropriate committees also have to say , again because i think we have a party process and procedures that short-cutting in the long term will prove detrimental.
I plead guilty of that From my earliest comment:-
Quote:"But before we change the world, we need to change the way we think. ..Total revolution of consciousness and our entire social, political and economic system is what interests me, but that’s not on the ballot." http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/10/russell-brand-on-revolution. Apart from that , all i really find is pub-talk. And all the kudos Brand is receiving is simply from his fame…goodness…a clown who has political ideas…as if that is even something unique. You and i and every member and sympathiser must have met and drank with Russel Brands of the world. Usually, their politics disappears when something more interesting comes on TV or becomes the fashion. I'm such a cynic.”Indeed I was a cynic and proved wrong…his political participation has persisted. October 2013 I remarked:-
Quote:If we are to jump on the band-wagon we should be clear on what points it is to be and what direction we should steer the discourse. Fact is we have already lost this one particular piece of propaganda prize and missed the boat. It has indeed gone viral as Imposs says, and our independent voice simply isn't vocal or loud enough to draw attention to ourselves…no more spilt milk, water under bridges etc etc. Let’s move on to some practical proposals of propaganda. Nor do i think we should be in the business of searching for celebrity endorsement, no matter how appealing.That observation, however, I still stand by. We had 246 posts on the other thread and now have 44 posts on this one.Surely now we must have reached a conclusion and some resolve….ummmm…nope, not yet…As i have said…that extra mile SP referred to must be in the general direction towards socialism, and quite frankly, my dears, we are not so sure about the route. I for one think we should acquire compass and a map, and perhaps the Twitter and social media can serve as our GPS to show where we are actually at on that journey.
The underlying "ideology" of Richard Werner is to save capitalism from itself and assist the recovery with a policy that credit should be extended and directed to the productive economy – businesses which create goods and services. Since credit according to him can be created by banks, the solution is pain and cost free for the system. no inflationary effect, for instance, by central bank money printing….or have i got his reasoning wrong?Personally. i'll let the financial princes and industrial barons fight it out…if such a separation really exists now with the obverlap of corporation wealth.
Quote:Not only does Martin Wolf of the Financial Times recognize that banks create money out of thin air but so too does Positive Money (I wonder whether you even visited their site or read their literature) among many others who have bothered to actually do research rather than pontificate out of conjecture on the web.Actually we go one better, we invite them to express their views and we debate with them directly. http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/video/debate-banking-reform-or-abolition-capitalismWe have indeed heard of your expert Richard Werner http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/100-reserve-banking?page=4http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2012/no-1298-october-2012/guardian-haven-cranksAnd i am personally aware of his experiment of following the paper trail inside a bank of a loan.
I suppose another issue is just how indoctrinated and brainwashed the average sports consumer is that the obsession is with football that fills the coffers of broadcasters and advertisers.Where i live there is regular volley-ball on tv and being on the village volley ball team carries as much prestige as the football teamSo called minority sports are always "on the brink" of breaking through but seldom do….the 2 million chickenfeed deal that the GAA managed to extract from Sky hurling (or shinty as its called in Scotia) is an example the lack of lack of interest in any real sport by the average spectator… Football has gone beyond tribalism…Why are the big clubs global entities with a worldwide fan base? Totally off topic…just what is fascinating with grand prix car racing…zoom zoom around a track with a mind-numbing repetition…why not substitute Scaletrix?……In fact ditch football and televise subbuteo
As i said on another thread, i don't think it is the right time to embark upon the full introspection i hope we will have.As has been pointed out, the appropriate committees must themselves have a review of their own activities…and perhaps function as a spring-boardI also think some members deserve a well-earned rest from "politics" for a little bitAs Brian rightly observed i am seeking a no-holds-barred debate…from the name of the party that has already been identified as a problem to our campaigning styles and the mediums we mostly use for them…It will raise the hackles when i suggest we should return to old discussions on such things as the prohibition of membership to holders of religious beliefs…a re-focus on our attitude and relationship with reforms, the use of the term of socialism and and associated language….I want an exchange of opinion on all our particular "heresies" And as i say…at the end of it , we may well find ourselves sticking to tried and trusted ways, confirming the wisdom of our existing ideas …and adopting only a few new ones….but we have to show a willingness and an enthusiasm to further political education gained from this valued experience of a direct involvement with people willing to engage with political views …far from being common, it is not something we have experienced so up-front in a long time…Not many have much time for self-indulgent intellectuals such as Will Self but this is what he said today
Quote:I’m no longer a socialist if to be one is to believe that a socialist utopia is attainable by some collective feat of will – but I remain a socialist, if by “socialism” is understood an antipathy to vested interests and privileges neither deserved nor earned, and a strong desire for a genuinely egalitarian society. And that is why, for the first time since 1997, I will be voting Labour in a general election.I think he represents a typical socialist sceptic that Vin has said we must begin to start convincing….But how?…Thats the question. ADM? Conference? At the end of any proposed review, it has to go through the party decision making…ultimately a party referendum…I think its easier to get rid of the chaff (which i already said still needs to be returned to and discussed and if necessary dismissed again) from the wheat in advance and it makes things a lot smoother for a workable Conference or ADM to cross the t and dot the i . The preliminary debate should be via the web, as Vin says, …and a summary eventualy produced for those still not online when it becomes apparent the various topics have been exhausted….arggg!!!…am i suggesting another ad-hoc sub-committee for this task…ouch!!!Anyways back to my opening opinions, i think this thread should be put on hold, til a better time then revived in preparation for a dedicated face to face occasion.
i forget the statistics but the vast majority of professional players who work in the lower leagues are pitifully paid.Our blog Socialist Banner has featured a few posts on the new African slave trade…youngsters with football talent trafficked around the clubs of Europe and elsewherehttp://socialistbanner.blogspot.com/search?q=footballAnother factor that is often is forgotten, the huge amount of players put out the game by injury, often in their prime, with not much compensation from their employers…http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/search?q=sport+injuriesif health and safety regulations applied to football they's blow the final whistle on it…(rugby football too, i'm betting as well, YMS)Again i forget the statistics for the NHS cost to sporting injuries (i don't think they ever narrowed it down to specific sports but i'm betting from the anecdotal evidence of all those knee operations given to people i know, football is high up the list)I recall talking to a nurse who worked A and E …apparently it isn't Saturday evenings after the matches that has the rush of patients, but Sunday mornings …Saturday night, the team is on the piss with alcohol acting as a convenient anesthetic …only when they sober up on Sunday does the extent and implication of their game injury become apparent. (I knew a few guys who endure the pain and hobble into work on the Monday and then stage a work-place acccident to get a claim.)Not so sure i would be so cynical about the GAA…may have its faults but also has a few merits. I posted on my personal blog thishttp://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2009/03/socialism-of-gaelic-athletic.html
…whoooooo-hoooooooo..somebody actually has now responded to my repeated messages. Cheers, Brian. I believe you are the first …I think it is not a matter of management of the election campaign i have centred my thoughts upon but the broader and deeper issue of how we are being perceived by electors and how we project ourselves to them. No amount of applause compensates if voters decide we are still not worthy of an actual vote, much less the much required necessity of actual membership. My concern with simply using Conference and ADM resolutions is that it will be crowded out. I seek that members and branches concentrate attention on one area of the Party. That special branch meetings are held…that a dedicated internet thread is used for online discussions, (I'm still astounded that some members still insist in not using this forum and stick to Spopen and even WSM)I should add i am not seeking hasty decisions being made but that the debate commences in some sort of structured way that leads to a determined definitive conclusion at the end of it all. I have already hinted that imho there should be no sacred cows, no off-limits …everything should be up for criticism and analysis. A fundamental re-thinking of the party as a whole….even if we do, at the end of it all, merely reaffirm what we already are and should become. Nothing wrong with getting to know ourselves even better.Obviously this thread is not the place to engage in this discussion, nor is this the right time to begin ……When we have some empirical and anecdotal evidence from the general election campaign (see moderator – i am still on-topic) we can as you say use existing committees for feedback …but also to go well beyond their remits and include every member's view and opinion. Nuff, said now…i've given my notice of a future new thread, so i will remain for the moment quiet on our future as a party
Quote:"We have to be careful, when answering these emails, so as not to "take sides", "make choices", about how Capitalism is run/organised, or its priorities are organised."…Is this the same Steve that got pulled up for a too personal opinion on fracking?Take that as a comradely dig, Steve, nothing serious to get upset about. I already said much the same as yourself previously on the thread but i certainly don't want the party to be seen as always putting forward abstract opposition devoid of the human touch.We all got our own distinctive styles of presenting the case for socialism and what is good for one is not necessarily good for another. I've said it before…let a thousand flowers bloom…I also want the party to be perceived as its own debating chamber…an organic animated organisation where disagreements and differences are welcome (and even sought) – as long as they eventually lead to an agreed party position even if that may well be that we agree to disagree. Apologies if i am showing the LBird trait (apologies to him too for taking his name in vain) …of linking all exchanges to one idiosyncratic purpose….my desire for a special post-election conference on the party and its future.
The Green Party – "sensible people with sensible policies" , BrandI think this is what we regularly come up against….Whereas even the Green manifesto promises are viewed as practical and feasible, socialism is rarely seen as a viable alternative to capitalism. In fact, the basic nature of capitalism is seen as "common-sense" and although many people want a different type of world, just and equal, socialism as we define it, simply is not an option.Carry on in the same manner as we are doing? Re-invent socialism as something else, much as Zeitgeist did?We cannot change our content so all we can do is address our presentation of it but should we discard the baggage of our past and dump our history, even if such a choice is open to us? Is there a middle way to take…easy enough for the reformists …New Labour…21st Century Socialism…(Didn't one – Marxism Today- actually decide to transform into a think-tank) How and in what way do we re-label and re-brand ourselves?Our case for socialism isn't simply just sensible it is logical and sure how we offer it has to be logical too…but in what sort of approach?I don't thisnk these questions i have posed are unanswerable. Well, perhaps they are for just one person to successfully solve, but we have a collective knowledge of the past to tap into, a shared unbroken political party experience to refer to. We have to sit down and have a serious group-think about ourselves as a Party and how we express our principles.We all have our friends, many closer than even family, but why are they not members? We have co-workers who throw themselves into union activity either as resistance or aspiration for better surroundings but they decline to involve themselves in our type of politics that seeks the same for all people so why their reluctance? We need to not only philosophise about such issues at ADM or Conference but to paraphrase and parrot Marx we need to take steps and act …even if it may mean having to change ourselves in that process. Occupy and Brand despite glaring weaknesses did signify there is a route possible, very roughly indicated, for us to take and difficult as it is reading the map. …but as a Party of members with an agreed aim, we do at least have a compass to start off in the right direction.On another thread Howard gave his personal approach…some may not fully agree but i think he is right on one basic belief …to be inclusive and not exclusive…How can holding a principled position on membership criteria match this aspiration of becoming a class organisation…a peoples' …party is another thing we must ask ourselves.
I hope Howard is not trying to be all things to all people with that answer No mention of our materialistic approach to religion that separates us from those with a religious belief of any sort…And i wonder just how a caste religion based on inequality such as hinduism can be called ethical (i'm no expert on caste in the UK Hindu community so i am not sure just how much importance is still given to it within the British communities)Unlike most other religions, Hinduism has no single founder, no single scripture, and no commonly agreed set of teachings…so i suppose at a push, you could impose a socialist ethic upon it, even if no-body actually adhered to it, but we do have a right-wing Hindutva-nationalist government in power in India right now. And then to say socialism has a strong following in India…ummm…what socialists would these be, surely the strong following being referred to can't mean the dozen or so WSP(India) members among a population of more than a billion. I think we have to tread warily in presenting what can be perceived as a false impression of ourselves just to be seen as "nice"…It is inevitable that we offend those who differ and disagree with ourselves and we shouldn't be reluctant about honestly revealing that …even if to relate to another thread topic, it might mean remaining a small isolated "sect" – then so be it.
Ammo for the two London candidates…the unspoken of migrant issue…http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/over-50000-families-shipped-out-of-london-in-the-past-three-years-due-to-welfare-cuts-and-soaring-rents-10213854.html
