[alanjjohnstone]

Another video from the MFP -New Zealandhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXbIirBku-sAn audio linkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbzZ7LgZT7EAnd the MFP/TZM  3-part meetinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9p5Ivv9iOg

[alanjjohnstone]

It seems the fight between nationalists will continuehttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-are-marxists-says-conservative-mp-10239827.html

Quote:

"Are you going to vote for, effectively, a Marxist SNP, or would you vote for a prudent Scottish Conservative party offering lower taxes and better service?"

[alanjjohnstone]

I've said it before and i'll keep saying it. We will not find clones of ourselves out there.Many people reach similar conclusions but they come via their own personal journeys, often made under differing conditions, situations and backgrounds. Thus,  they acquire and bring their own specific baggage with them and sometimes just (like ourselves) they are understandably hesitant about abandoning that baggage. No organisation should be expected to reject its particular history. Differences may include the style of organisation, the language used, and very often certain elements of their policies and principles. What we have to do is ignore the superficial and surface differences and seek out the core ideas that are shared in common and if the overlaps and cross-overs are sufficient to form mutually beneficial associations that may well lead to other relationships.I was in no way involved with the merger ot the Social Revolution group and Solidarity that produced Solidarity For Social Revolution but Libcom has a fair bit in their eerchives and library about it.They were small numbers of activists involved with not much physical holdings. We in the SPGB on the other hand have a few hundred members (albeit not all active) and possess considerable assets.I'd like other perhaps more appropriate and relevant  examples of parties/groups joining either formally or informally to draw on their experiences. What bits of ideology can be sacrificed, what pieces of theory can be adopted. For Nick, for the moment i have some simple questions, just so i can weigh up what we are dealing with in terms of a party. How many members , how many groups in the UK and the geographical spread of individual members?I note there exists a New Zealand MFP and i'm curious to know how many of they there are. (Our own WSPNZ appears to be about half a dozen strong)No i am not  trying to advocate one organisation but i do want to know right away if on the long term such an objective might be possible and what both groups bring to the table.I also want to demonstrate a willingness of the SPGB to adapt and that we do not have principles that are unchanging and set in stone…that now cliched and passe reference….monument or movement. One step at a time. MFP is still a mystery to me, i look forward to discovering more about it, the way it makes decisions, the interaction of its members with one another and with other  groups and also its aspirations and strategies for its progress. Hopefully we in the SPGB might well have something to learn, as MFP may well do from us. 

[alanjjohnstone]

First, i think he should read this whole thread so that everything can be placed in context with him and present a clear perspective of where people are coming from. We are no talking about MFP in isolation but as part of our post-mortem on the election and how the party should respond. For the moment i believe it still relevant to the topic which is a reappraisal of our image and presentation. As Vin suggested we can get down to specific topics and discuss them singly but i think it is a case of when it is appropriate and it doesn't pull away from all the related subjects.   

[alanjjohnstone]

So ALB does that mean we are now to be hostile to MFP? No, i don't think we have sufficient reason to be. As i stated quite clearly, that hostility should be reserved solely for pro-capitalist parties or those parties with tactics that are anti-working class and undemocratic.  I think i read somewhere that if a situation arose that there were two socialist parties , the task would then be to talk it through, both parties make an accommodation and merge. My judgement is that such unity is premature simply because it won't have any great effect or influence on thingsHowever, if i was an isolated local member who was nearer and found it easier to get to MFP or TZM group than a SPGB branch i think i would become a regular attender and, dare i say it,…help them out in practical ways …while all the time arguing the SPGB case for what KSB rightly describes as a failing…but what i would not treat as some deadly transgression. 

[alanjjohnstone]

You are right that we must review our relationships with possible and potential allies. BrianJ did sterling work with TZM, and Paddy too went on their internet radio channel. We haven't been totally passive and inactive. We visited Occupy St Pauls…But perhaps ALB should have taken his sleeping bag and tent alongI also think we have to reconsider how we communicate with the many reformist organisations and groups…and that, too, has to do with the language we use. It is not a matter of agreeing but in what way and how we disagree. Nick mentions it, you mention Howard Pilott and i would include Mike Foster's replies too, as well as Danny's human/humanity touch in his way of talking. We can drop the language of the socialist lexicon but i think we should use it where applicable…horses for courses.We have changed…non-party speakers…debates ecoming friendlier forums…intervies in the Standard…these can be built upon…A guest column in the Standard, for instance, to stimulate debate?As for me joining Facebook…sorry, i avoid using it and Twitter too.

[alanjjohnstone]

I see the Guardian/BBC are seeking to steer the choices for the Labour leadership, offering the platform to Devil Incarnate Blair himself and to his arch-demon Mandelson.

[alanjjohnstone]

i was responding to ALB's comment that like TZM they lack a concept of social change other than the power of persuasion and in particular,  the working class and their class  struggles which we argue will be a powerful component of the revolution. I am aware that there may be other motivitators such as the environment activity but i do regard the working class consciousness as the key constituent in any change, because of their importance at the point of production. . TZM decline from taking any politlcal role and that is what i meant that we must argue that they do become a political party. I made no mention that they should join us but i thought i made it clear that i do not evoke the hostility clause against organisations i do not consider as enemies but that it should be reserved for those who oppose working class interests and the ideas of socialism, including its democratic features, as often demonstrated by such as those who can be viewed as insurrectionists and party vanguardism. TZM and MFP don't fit into that category.On Libcom and here i often say we need to re-assess our relationship with the "Thin Red Line" …but equally they too have to adapt and they are proving as intransigent as many SPGBers. I persist in saying that despite differences we can still work together and debate and discuss as comrades and offer that mutual support necessary for our survival as a viable tradition. I see no reason why there can't be different "socialist" parties. I do think it would be disappointing without some sort of agreed cooperation and coordination in that there would be much duplication of effort but i have suggested previously  that a the socialist party will be a party with a small p, one general workers movement , the umbrella or as we say the banner where all muster under, all those disperate (not desperate but that may well be accurate too) single issues campaigns unite for one objective (i think this what was envisaged by Marx rather than on structured organisation.) I see no reason why we cannot come togetehr in a common cause perhaps using the framework you set up yourself with World In Common as a prototype model or embryo of what can be accomplished. My final comment was a provocative aside that we have still a long way to go to become a class party and in the process of becoming one, we too must transform ourselves in many ways…"lead by example" …But sometimes the working of my mind doesn't correspond with the working of fingers on a keyboard. 

[alanjjohnstone]

So not one of fundamental difference…just a divergence on approaches or like our dispute with the SLP, secondary and not primary disagreements . Like TZM we have to transform them into proper political parties…ie as it says on D of P 

Quote:

That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests

Perhaps we should lead by example 

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

They don't really want "independence". In fact they'd shit themselves if they got it

Umm…ALB so the separation referendum was all a bit of reverse psychology and a double bluff, then? SNP (and the Yes voters)  didn't really want a sovereign state…Now that is what i call a true conspiracy They did make it clear that in this election independence was not an issue but that it was a negotiating ploy for the promises of extra powers made during the referendum and of course claiming to be the real anti-austerity party for all UK was a stroke of genius by the SNP spin doctors. But regards their nationalism, like ourselves, i think we have to treat what is on the label as what the content is. I see no parallel with the DUP. (or with the Sinn Fein's boycott of London position.)I think the real parallel is with the Catalonian nationalists or Italy's Northern League, a feeling that they are subsidising the other regions …or at least before the North Sea oil price crashed.This regionalism and we cannot forget about Wales, Cornwall…and dare i suggest London is what anarchist/Green decentralisers seek and you are right that it is going to lead to sectional rivalries of either politics of envy or i'm alright jack politics. Small is not always beautiful. I think the publications committee will have to return to their draft nationalism pamphlet in preparation for the upcoming debate on British nationalism and European internationalism (sic). 

[alanjjohnstone]

No, Never, i just won't believe it, No Way….But is it possible we will witness the return of Blair as leader or at least the power behind the throne to "save" Labour? 

[alanjjohnstone]

What's his disagreement with us about that stopped him from becomng a member.How many are involved in the Moneyless Party…is it a one-man-band?

[alanjjohnstone]

The Greens continue the "battle", calling for PR…of course, they are trying to sideline the LD and UKIP…http://www.carolinelucas.com/latest/caroline-cross-party-progressives-must-work-together

[alanjjohnstone]

Yes, a bit of humble pie from him, but i wonder if he would have said the same if Miliband had romped home into No 10. (and he did clarify who he meant by "we" which i queried earlierSeems he will be returning to single issues and social activism which for all my previous scepticism (see debate on Weekly Worker with SW) i am now wondering how we ourselves can interact more positvely with, without following the Left's transgressions of manipulation by their intervention and by not compromising our own anti-reformism.I'm wondering if out supportive attitudes towards trade unions can somehow be adapted and modified to relate to the many campaigns for social justice that exist from local to worldwide levels. 

[alanjjohnstone]

Probably irrelevant but i wrote about the American Civil War herehttp://www.countercurrents.org/johnstone060415.htmMore a snap-shot of Marx view rather than a definitive one.

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