Wolff, co-ops and socialism

August 2020 Forums General discussion Wolff, co-ops and socialism

Viewing 13 posts - 31 through 43 (of 43 total)
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  • #205384
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant
    #205420
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant
    #205498
    ALB
    Participant

    Just got round to reading these last two articles. The second one is actually not too bad. The first gives a good enough  definition of capitalism as being based on the employer/employee relationship (the wages system) but then confuses things by at one point calling the old USSR, China, etc state capitalist and at another socialist.

    As to be expected, he advances his solution that worker coops are the way forward, at one point even describing them as “communist”. They do abolish the  employer/employee relationship for those involved but they are not communist because they are envisaged as still producing for sale on a market; whereas communism (socialism) implies that the democratically-run productive units would not be producing for the market, precisely because what they produced would belong to the whole community (“communism”) and be there to be distributed in non-market ways, either free distribution, free use or taking for free.

    #205499
    marcos
    Participant

    He is just spreading more confusions. Coops and communes are not communist measures. He has read Capital but he does not understand the whole body of ideas of Karl Marx, like any other leftwingers.  Marx never advocated for Coops, it was Robert Owen

    #205500
    Hic rodus
    Participant

    Another attempt to resolve the contradictions, like a dog chasing its tale. The will to break the circle and really transform society is diverted into these projects. They all seem to end in disillusion, and sadly, with another generation thinking that socialism doesn’t work.

    #205501
    marcos
    Participant

    He does not understand the character of the State. The state is financed with surplus value and workers are not the taxpayers, it is the capitalist class

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 5 hours ago by marcos.
    #205503
    Hic rodus
    Participant

    He would benefit from looking through past issues of the socialist standard, they are a living document to history. I was reading through all the old articles about the miner’s strikes and the dead end road that reformism and attempts to ameliorate capitalism have all reached.

    #205504
    marcos
    Participant

    The point is that socialism/communism is a post-capitalist society, it is not capitalism within capitalism, that is the reason why he has named Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, North Korea and the Soviet Union as socialist, he is not adding anything new, he is just repeating what the leftists and Leninists have said for several decades

    #205505
    ALB
    Participant

    In 1910 the Socialist Labor Party of America published a speech by Jules Guesde, head of an opposition faction within the reformist “socialist party” In France, in which he argued that there was nothing socialist as such in cooperatives and that their only use to the socialist movement was to provide funds for it. At least he showed a higher understanding than Wolff.

    http://www.slp.org/pdf/others/coops_soc.pdf

    #205506
    marcos
    Participant

    https://es.internationalism.org/Rm/87_autogestion.html

    The International Communist Current which is a Trotsky /Leninist type organization does not support the Coop concept (self-management) because they were very popular in Spain, Latin America and the Caribbean Island. Sadly they have not published the article in the English language. It is similar to the self-management movement initiated by Tito in Yugoslavia. The ICC also showed a higher understanding than Wolff

    #205507
    marcos
    Participant

    We have two articles about the factories that were taken over by workers in Argentina and they were run as cooperatives and forced them to be run as capitalist enterprises when the enterprises ( or coops )  started to produce profits, the government passed laws to take them back, and give them to the prior owners, and they form a joint venture,  and the workers lost everything that they had built.

     

    Trotskyists ( which are very popular in Argentina along with the Anarchists ) praised this as socialist movement, and a model of socialism,  and then when it failed  they changed gear, like Leninist always do when the ideas are not by the social and economic reality, and they must initiate a process of rectification like evangelicals

    #205508
    marcos
    Participant

    The SLP of America and several others ( Including Stalinist groups )  have considered that coops and communes are not socialists measures, as well many Leninists organizations in our times have considered that Feminism is just a bourgeoise reformist measure

    #205561
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    The U.S. economy expanded at an extraordinary rate for roughly 150 years, a period of “ascendant capitalism” from about the 1820s through the 1970s.

    “If you look at the numbers, real wages in the United States, the average amount of goods and services a working man or woman could buy with what they got, went up every decade,” Wolff said. “It’s an amazing story. And it produced in the United States, this euphoria — there is no other way to describe it — this really strange notion that other people don’t have.” It was, specifically, the belief now called “American exceptionalism,” which Wolff described as the conviction “that God likes you and so has put you in this great place where you can start off poor and end up rich. And there was something to it. It wouldn’t have burrowed so deeply in the consciousness of the American if there wasn’t something to it.”

    That period, however, is clearly over.

    https://www.alternet.org/2020/08/is-the-us-a-failed-state-in-2020-experts-answers-range-from-maybe-to-hell-yes/

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