Ukraine v Russia

May 2021 Forums General discussion Ukraine v Russia

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 25 total)
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  • #83302
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    What is going on? Thousands dead, tens of thousands refugees and there seems to be a media silence compared with other flash-points around the world. 

    Have we taken our eye off what is perhaps the most dangerous diplomatic and military confrontation in may of our lifetimes? 

    Our media has already taken the side the government wants us to take.

    Is France and Germany going it alone against the UK and the USA more war-like stance? US talking about supplying military aid to Ukraine…then it will (or already has been) advisors…then some US transport plane or whatever is attacked…just during the US and UK election seasons

    Should we be ready for a possible escalation? Draft our press release now? Fortunately we do have both Russian and Ukrainian native speakers, don' we to make it  multi-lingual statement for the internet. (Did we ever translate our 1914 and 1939 statements into German?)

    Chomsky reckons this is far more serious with far more serious consequences than all those proxy wars of the past. Is he right?

    Are we sleep-walking into war? 

     

    #109496
    Darren redstar
    Participant

    It has been suggested that Hitlers need the subdue the uppity Greeks postponed his assault into Russia to too late in the year, one wonders whether Merkel will make the same error? More seriously, the way in which our rulers are driving us to war, almost without any questioning, is deeply disturbing.perhaps because it doesn't fit the war for oil/ war on Islam narratives which seem to pass as explanations of inter capitalist conflict on the Left these days.

    #109497
    ALB
    Keymaster

    One thing the conflict there showsis  that the Cold War wasn't about ideology but about spheres of influence. Putin has as much democratic legitimacy and popular support as Obama and Bush before him. He too won elections. He's not a "communist" but a Russian nationalist and supporter of the Russian Orthodox Church. It's a naked struggle for control of a strategic area. The "West" can't really have thought that they could just take over the Ukraine and take it out of the Russian sphere without those in charge of Russian capitalism just rolling over and letting them do it. Not sure it will lead to a European war though. They'll just divide up the Ukraine into a Western sphere and a Russian one. I don't suppose Russia wants to try to control the pro-German facists from western Ukraine any more than the West thinks it would be able to control the Russian-speakers of eastern Ukraine.

    #109498
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Thats a very pertinent point, ALB, particularly as  people keep referring to the return of the Cold War. Maybe you can expand on it in April's Standard. Bellicose Russia simply following a policy begun by the tsars. But i doubt the historians will be honest enough to entitle this war  the Russian Autocrats versus the American PlutocratsI agree Darren. Even on this discussion list, my thread has elicited little response so it shows how easy we can be driven to war without serious questioning. On quite a few websites it is seen as EU expansionism to land grab the farms, a Chinese purchase of vast acreage has been thwarted i believe …(i even heard it is a Monsanto GM ploy to get around EU rules!!)…….i think energy is part of the reason…the largest importer of Russian gas is Germany, hence their reluctance to block the supply. The pipeline issue is a long-standing one.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sectorFrance is less dependent, being more nuke-powered (in contrast Germany is ridding itself of nuke stations) so not sure of France motives for being dilomatic moderates. I think i'll read my Marx again, this time perhaps the conspiracy theorist Marx…Palmerston the Russian agenthttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/palmerston/

    #109499
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Over a million refugees and it doesn't get highlighted…where are the camera crews, the interviews. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/one-million-people-forced-to-leave-their-homes-because-of-ukraine-conflict-un-says-10030722.htmlThe craven media again…follow the politicians, forget the people

    #109500
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant
    #109501
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    The escalation“the biggest reinforcement of our collective defence since the end of the cold war…Nato declared on Thursday it will set up six new command posts on its eastern borders and create a 5,000-strong rapid reaction force… It will be supported by air and sea forces as well as special operations units, and two more land brigades on standby in the event of a major crisis. Altogether, 30,000 Nato troops will be assigned to bolster the alliance’s eastern defences… UK would contribute 1,000 troops and four RAF Typhoon jets for “air policing” in eastern Europe. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/05/nato-rapid-reaction-force-counter-russia-ukraine

    #109502
    ALB
    Keymaster
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    Bellicose Russia simply following a policy begun by the tsars.

    Actually, in this case, I think it is rather the other way round. Most of what is currently called Ukraine has been historically part of Russia for centuries. It is the West that is being expansionist this time.

    Quote:
    On quite a few websites it is seen as EU expansionism

    I think they are right. Didn't it used to be called the "Drang nach Osten"?In any event, workers have no interest in supporting either side. As usual they are the victims of war.

    #109503
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Today, Ukraine…Tomorrow,  Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia …I used to admire the Independents anti-Iraq War stance but in recent years, it has grown to be perhaps the most war-mongering. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russias-growing-threat-after-ukraine-fears-grow-that-baltic-states-could-be-vladimir-putins-next-targets-10032378.html Hammond said. “This man has sent troops across an international border and occupied another country’s territory acting like some mid-20th century tyrant. We do not see any reason to tolerate this kind of outrageous and outdated behaviour…" No,  not Blair or Bush.Is diplomacy always schizophrenic?Germany’s Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung newspaper reported today that German intelligence estimated up to 50,000 soldiers and civilians had been killed during the conflict….these statistics are simply not making headlines 

    #109504
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    They bombed Serbia TV. They bombed Al Jazeera until Qatar toes the line. The put Iran's Press TV off the air. Now it is Russia's RT time. http://rt.com/op-edge/230315-rt-responds-lucas-munich/

    Quote:
    I think we could do a bit more of ostracism. I’m quite happy to say that if anyone puts a CV on my desk, and on that CV I see they worked at RT or Sputnik or one of these things, that CV is going into the bin and not into the intro. We would not have accepted it during the Cold War that people could move from working for Pravda, or Izvestia, or TASS, and then into jobs in Western media. Far too many people see a job at RT as the first stage on a career ladder. It’s not. It’s the last stage on a career ladder. It’s like working as a PR person for a tobacco company, but even worse. And only then would I start looking at regulatory things — and there are things we can do on a regulatory side. We have a regulated media space. In my own country, Ofcom is complaining to RT about its lack of balance. So, there are things we can do but I think those things are the last resort, not the first resort."

    This in the week that a US tv anchor admitted fantasising about a so-called attack on him in Iraq and CNN admitting they were indeed knowingly fed stories by the intelligence agencies to spread for them. As a disclaimer, i'm no fan of RT and agree their choice of op-ed is pretty dismal but little different from FOX 

    #109505
    robbo203
    Participant

    What's happening about the enquiry into that Malaysian plane that was shot down? I understand there was some evidence that it could only have been done by a jet fighter, not a BUK ground to air missile – judging from what seems to be bullet holes in the fuselage.  Is this the case? If so it could turn out to be a massive  embarrassment to western governments and media who unhesitatingly blamed Moscow

    #109506
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I saw the claims that it was an aircraft but they are unverified and like so many other theories rely on non-expert "experts". The BUK is not designed to make actual impact but to explode soon as it is in proximity of its target…What are "bullet-holes" from canon-fire can easily be interpreted as shrapnel effect…the actual ballistic foresics i think would be easy to establish scientifically. But i think you are right about a reluctance to name the perpetrator whether Russian or Ukrainian as it would force everybody's hand. We already see a reticence to admit war crimes by Ukraine…Its use of cluster ammunition and various civilian targets hit such as buses, refusal to permit humanitarian aid ….the fog of war is convenient to hide behind…My opinion, personally, it was Russian forces acting on behalf of the rebel forces believing it to be a Ukrainian transport plane…(or simply a cock-up).. German journalists investigation seems to have tracked down the unit and provided circumstantial proof…but what do i really know…Intelligence is all about lying and the best spies are the best liars…. If we do go to a hot shooting war i think it will be treated de facto that it was the Russians …even the Devil Incarnate Putin himself will be identified as who pulled the trigger…Already the Americans are conducting campaign to show he is a crazy by releasing intelligence report from yonks back that he has a minor affliction of Aspergers. Merkel seems to have had a good record of keeping Germany out of NATO wars …Libya and Syria (but not Afghanistan)…and they have the most to lose…as does Italy…Although the conditions for war are created by capitalism…the actual touch-paper for its outbreak is often lit by mis-calculation…And any American involvement even military supplies other than egging on from the sidelines would ignite it, imho.But we could have a English/Russian/Ukrainian statement on war right now to circulate on the net…At this moment of time the web is still accessible to us to do so….but i foresee it being effectively shut-down in a conflict….As happened to the North Korean internet in the recent cyberwar.The best scenario for workers, both Russian and Ukrainian is that the border is re-drawn and everything settles down again. But if NATO places missiles there …it will be the equivalent of the Cuban Crisis for Moscow….My worry as i have expressed is that the situation is not being perceived by workers as the serious threat to world peace as it should be…. 

    #109507
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    The US considering supplying lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31279621can i ask just what are these ategories? I understand anti-aircraft missiles are defensive but the rebels are not using any air power so it is rather spurious to suggest it will have any effect on the actual fighting…As far as i know, only the Ukrainian government is otherwise it be proof of Russian direct complicity, something they decline to at this moment admit. Supplying AA would mean foreseeing Russian escalation to actual air attacks and bombing. So help me out ….what other defensive weapons are there? Does he mean land mines?…an indiscriminate form of self – defence? So what are the other types of lethal defensive weaponry?

    #109508
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I found this of interest ..Ukrainian draft dodgers flee to Russia…albeit a suspect source…Putin…but i lke the theory…sit out a war in comfort paid for by your "enemy"…http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/02/09/3265i wonder if it is all just a statistical ruse…All the rebels will possess Ukrainian passports (except the directly annexed Crimeans)  and could be classed as draft dodgers. 

    #109509
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I thought this was a measured and fairly accurate over-view of the whole Ukrainian V Russia situation from its beginnings…As often the case, the media rarely presents an accurate time-line of events.https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/13/the-putin-did-it-conspiracy-theory/

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