December 17, 2018 at 8:21 am #172348
Has the SPGB read, heard or made any commentary in regard to a critique made on Anti-Capital in regard to the pamphlet on the Russian Revolution ?December 17, 2018 at 8:26 am #172349December 17, 2018 at 10:50 am #172474
Dave CheshamParticipantDecember 17, 2018 at 1:46 pm #172588
Thanks. I have not read the December Socialist Standard yet, and I did not read the replies given on their website. I heard the opinion on PodcastDecember 17, 2018 at 6:55 pm #172705
I should add that all the replies on Anti-Capital’s website were penned by Robbo who was barred by them early on during the exchange.December 18, 2018 at 7:25 am #173042
I tried a reasonable discussion with this website but they failed to respond in a civil or constructive manner.December 18, 2018 at 11:29 am #173148
I think you all made a very good fist of it. 🙂December 18, 2018 at 11:05 pm #173446
I tried a reasonable discussion with this website but they failed to respond in a civil or constructive manner.
Alan, with the likes of Mr Artesian running the ‘Anti-Capital’ show you are not likely to get a civil or constructive response. This joker has built up quite a reputation for being a arrogant asshole, by all accounts. I like the way he accuses the SPGB of avoiding questions when he completely ignores the arguments that have been put to him, I found it rather difficult to answer his questions anyway after he banned me for giving him a taste of his own medicine with a few choice insults myself. LOL
You might want to have a final crack at the whip if you have not been banned yourself. If you think it is worth the effort……..December 19, 2018 at 6:58 am #173526
An afterthought – perhaps Artesian can be taken to task for some of the claims made in his latest outburst which is full of non sequiturs:
You come here blowing smoke about the “capitalist revolution” the “red capitalists” the self-centered working class without any interest in socialism– and when challenged, you try to hide your contempt for that actual material basis for the events of 1917 with statements about what’s “appropriate” for here and now.
If the outcome of the ‘revolution’ was state capitalism , how could the ‘revolution’ not have been capitalist? As for the ‘red capitalists’, nobody said Lenin and his associates were themselves capitalists. Artesian has such a simplistic and crude view of what his opponents are actually saying. The state capitalist class was an emergent outcome following the Bolshevik takeover and was not defined by legal de jure rights to capital but by de facto ultimate control over the means of production as a collective class, not as private capitalists (with or without top hats and fat cigars).
And finally, as for the self-centered working class without any interest in socialism, well, even Lenin stated that the Russian workers were overwhelmingly non-socialist at the time – what drew them to the Bolsheviks was the latter’s slogan of peace, land and bread. The charge that that they are being portrayed as ‘self centred’ for concerning themselves with such things as job security in a condition of financial breakdown and widespread factory closures is curious, Does Artesian believe that a socialist revolution can only be effected on the basis of altruistic self sacrifice? Is altruism necessarily socialist anyway? The worker who willingly dies for her country is acting out of altruism but no socialist would endorse her actions. Socialism involves both altruism and self interest anyway.
I would have loved to have put these points to Mr Artesian who claims we have not been answering the questions he posed but I have been banned from the site. If someone else wants to post these points on that site be my guest…December 20, 2018 at 8:38 pm #173859
My experiences have shown me that it is better to deal with Evangelicals than with the so called Marxist-Leninists,( a terminology coined by Stalin ) and the Maoists are worst. Eliminating the so called bolsheviks socialist revolution, it would be like eliminating the original sin from the Christians, the whole Christians faith would fall apart. I do remember the last congress of the MLPUSA when Enver Hoxha and Stalin were questioned until that moment everything was fine, but when some members tried to question Lenin and Leninism, and the Bolshevik revolution, the whole party fell apart, only a small group of hard headed stayed repeating the same argumentation. If they question Lenin and the Bolsheviks revolution the whole left will be dismantled completely, and they are going to have a big stampede bigger than the one they had after 1989. The argumentation given to Robbo, Dave and Alan they have been the same argumentations that they have been working for many decades, and I have heard and read the same shit for many years.Personally, I don’t waste my time with those guys,, I already did my homework a long time ago
P.S.: One of the writers of the Black Book of Communism was an ex-Maoist, later on, he retreated himself on some issues written on the book. I have seen many burned out ones, and frustrated ones who became faithfull allied of the ruling class of several countries, and they are collaborating with the most repressive goverments. Like these ones on Anti-capital they have not done their homework yet, and they will continue hammering the same mistakes for years until the real socialist revolution hit them on their own faces. The SPGB has been on the right track since 1903, and we knew about the character of the Bolshevik coup since the very beginning, we do not need a process of rectification, we just add new prologues
- This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Marcos.
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