Tankie critiques of the SPGB
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ALB wrote:Not sure about that at least as far as the tankies are concerned.Those are the battles of yesterday and we won. More than ever before, it's now accepted that Marx's views and Lenin's were not the same. What's the point in flogging a dead horse except perhaps for training or amusement.
I am not too sure to what extent the tankies are a spent force though, Adam, even if the view is gaining ground that Marx's views and Lenin's were not the same. What in your opinionwould be a rough figure for the size of the movement in the UK for example, juat out of interest? That aside, there are certain commonalities between trots and tankies that need addressing not necessarily with anything Marx might have said in mind but in their own right as questionable ideas (we dont ourselves agree with everything Marx wrote anyway) Yes Dave "Trots and Tankies" is a catchy title for a pamphlet. This is just an idea that popped into my head but I will have to put it to the Publications Committee first. Potentially it could be quite a popular little publication particularly with a bit of humour thrown in for good measure
Tankies (CPGB) peaked at 50,000 in the 1950s.Trots (SWP) peaked at 10,000 in the mid 1990s.The tankies suffered the most dramatic fall off in 1988 but both are irreversibly downhill.CPB claimed 1,000 a decade or so ago, but its likely they are closer to us now (<500), likewise the SWP since the Delta scandal in 2011.
jondwhite wrote:Tankies (CPGB) peaked at 50,000 in the 1950s.Trots (SWP) peaked at 10,000 in the mid 1990s.The tankies suffered the most dramatic fall off in 1988 but both are irreversibly downhill.CPB claimed 1,000 a decade or so ago, but its likely they are closer to us now (<500), likewise the SWP since the Delta scandal in 2011.What about other tankies outside of what was the CPGB? Any ideas? What groups comprise the tankie movement in the UK? Also what about the US?
They are just a bunch of Fanatics and extremists Stalinists. Whoever doesn't agree with their point of view is called a Liberal ( a label created by Mao in some of his writings ) The whole definition is wrong, that is not LiberalismDuring the controversy between China, Albania ( Mao Tse Tung and Enver Hoxha ) and the Soviet Union ( Nikita Kruschev ) in 1959 several similar groups emerged to defend the legacy of Joseph Stalin, and they supported the invasion of the Soviets in Eastern Europe ( that is the reason why they are called Tankie ) They claimed that communism in the Soviet Union was overthrown by an internal coup within the party after the death ( some claimed that Stalin was poisoned ) of Stalin, and communism ceased to exist after his death, therefore, communism was established by one leaderSome Stalinists within the Albania tendency rejected some of their point of view when Albania broke away from China calling the so-called Mao Tse Tung thought ( Marxism-Leninism of our time ) a modern version of Confuccio and China was a state capitalist country claiming Albania was the only socialist country that existed in that period of time. China developed their so-called Three World Theory Despite their apparent differences, it looks like Maoists and Hoxhaists are making alliances again, and new or reconstructed parties are emerging again.The other term is revisionism or revisionists, whoever doesn't agree with Lenin and Stalin is a revisionist and a liberal, Leninism and Stalinism must be accepted without any critiques, it is like a Bible written by prophets, that is the reason why they cannot digest the article written by the SPGB contrasting Lenin versus Marx http://collections.mun.ca/PDFs/radical/MaoTseTungCombatLiberalism.pdf PS The term Revisionism is also wrong because the first revisionist was Eduard Bernstein who was Mar's archivist
robbo203 wrote:Yes Dave "Trots and Tankies" is a catchy title for a pamphlet. This is just an idea that popped into my head but I will have to put it to the Publications Committee first. Potentially it could be quite a popular little publication particularly with a bit of humour thrown in for good measureSuch a 'short run' pamphlet would be useful on occasions like these which still occur from time to time.
robbo203 wrote:jondwhite wrote:Tankies (CPGB) peaked at 50,000 in the 1950s.Trots (SWP) peaked at 10,000 in the mid 1990s.The tankies suffered the most dramatic fall off in 1988 but both are irreversibly downhill.CPB claimed 1,000 a decade or so ago, but its likely they are closer to us now (<500), likewise the SWP since the Delta scandal in 2011.What about other tankies outside of what was the CPGB? Any ideas? What groups comprise the tankie movement in the UK? Also what about the US?
Marxist Leninist Party of the USA,(COUSML ) Communist Party of the USA ( M-L ) Conducted by Michael Klonsky,(SDS ) his father was a member of the CPUSA. Marxist Leninist Party of Canada, Conducted by Hardial Bains. Probably, in Latin America, they had more members than in Canada and the USA
Neither the CPGB nor its successor the CPB are "tankies" in the accepted sense of the word. It was coined to refer to those in the CPGB who disagreed with the leadership's decision to criticise the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia 50 years ago this August as it happens. Those who remained loyal to Moscow left and set up the New Communist Party and were dubbed "tankies".It does not refer to Maoists either. The NCP still exists but are now loyal to North Korea. These sort of people are no more likely to be interested in genuine socialism than neo-nazis. There is no point in spotlighting them. Everybody lampoons them anyway.We would make fools of ourselves if we used the word to cover the CPB and the various Mao sects. The correct term to refer to all of them including the trots is "Leninist"
On the classification of the CPGB/CPB as tankies I stand corrected.Numbers of tankies proper in the UK must therefore be vanishingly small, even smaller than first supposed.The CPGB-ML look bigger than they are at protests, those carrying flags can be their entire membership and sympathisers.Conversely, the AWL see "Stalinists" everywhere, even in the Labour Party, which is useful as they (falsely) claim the mantle of anti-Stalinism.
ALB wrote:Neither the CPGB nor its successor the CPB are "tankies" in the accepted sense of the word. It was coined to refer to those in the CPGB who disagreed with the leadership's decision to criticise the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia 50 years ago this August as it happens. Those who remained loyal to Moscow left and set up the New Communist Party and were dubbed "tankies".It does not refer to Maoists either. The NCP still exists but are now loyal to North Korea. These sort of people are no more likely to be interested in genuine socialism than neo-nazis. There is no point in spotlighting them. Everybody lampoons them anyway.We would make fools of ourselves if we used the word to cover the CPB and the various Mao sects. The correct term to refer to all of them including the trots is "Leninist"Do not go by the name, go according to their principles, in essence, they are all the same.
jondwhite wrote:On the classification of the CPGB/CPB as tankies I stand corrected.Numbers of tankies proper in the UK must therefore be vanishingly small, even smaller than first supposed.The CPGB-ML look bigger than they are at protests, those carrying flags can be their entire membership and sympathisers.Conversely, the AWL see "Stalinists" everywhere, even in the Labour Party, which is useful as they (falsely) claim the mantle of anti-Stalinism.Where do they get the expression Liberal to the opponent of Leninism- Stalinism from?
Until 1959 all the Marxist Leninists supported the Soviet Union internally and international and they supported all the measures carried over by the Soviets leaders including the Maoists and the Enverists, the split started in 1959 when they opposed Kruschev. Tankie is not a particular group, that is the name given to the Stalinists which also supported Kruschev as the continuator of Leninism and StalinismIf we go according to the definition ( bring the tanks during Hungary invasion in 1956 ) the largest group of Tankie are the Castroists because they continue supporting the Soviet Union and its policy and they support the invasion of Hungary. for them it was a revolt financed by the CIA. Fidel Castro openly supported the invasion of Checoslovakia and HungaryThe term Tonkie was given to them by the Trostkyists, and they called Trots ( and trosco ) to the followers of Trostky which opposed Stalinism, but they support Marxism-Leninism. The Trotskyists continue calling Tankie to all the followers of Stalinism.
ALB wrote:Not sure about that at least as far as the tankies are concerned.Those are the battles of yesterday and we won. More than ever before, it's now accepted that Marx's views and Lenin's were not the same. What's the point in flogging a dead horse except perhaps for training or amusement.The term Tankie is already over like Adam has indicated because many Stalinists after 1959 did not support the invasion of Hungary, ( including those that supported the invasion by Soviets tanks ) what is not over yet is Stalinism and Trotskyism and in essence both are the same, and there are many groups who know that too. . It is already known by many groups and independent personalities that there are many differences between Marx and Lenin. The Marxist-Leninist Party of the USA started a critique against Stalin and Enver Hoxha and the party was dissolved.
alanjjohnstone wrote:alanjjohnstone, I must say that this picture is a bit weird to use because this pic of Lenin facepalming is used by leninists when people say things that they find dumb. For example if I were to write "Lenin was in favor of State Capitalism", they could post this image in order to make fun of what I've written.Sorry for being a member of the meme policeThere are several pictures of Lenin that might be better to use. For example here are some photos of him that I think are in the public domain: Category:Portrait photographs of Vladimir Lenin – Wikimedia Commons
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