Suggestion: Close the web forums
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Vin wrote:There appears to be a number of issues being conflated here. The issue of Trolls, abuse, personal attacks and the discussion of 'internal matters'. I suspect there is unanimity of objection to the first three, which leaves the last one. Integral to and inseparable from the socialist case is the revolutionary movement's democatic strucure and organisation. It is going to be very difficult if not impossible to avoid revealing and discussing 'internal' matters while claiming to be open and democratic. Then there is the use of the modern means of communication to increase democratic participation. Should this be abandoned? If 'internal matters' are referred back to spintcom as Alan suggests then there would be no facility for non-members to contribute; of course this may be considered a good idea.Isn't the subject of this thread an 'internal matter'? Is it OK for non-members to contribute?
I'm not suggesting that there should be a code of "Omerta" with regard to anything to do with internal party democracy, I am however syaing that perhaps we should (me included) be a little more thoughtful about how we do this. For instance, generally speaking, the current discussion about the changes to party structure has been a lively and informative debate.However there have been times when internal party discussion has disolved into petty bickering, which does the party no good whatsoever and we end up in the "you spilt my pint" school of debate.I agree that democracy is integral to the Socialist case. But with democracy comes democratic procedure and a degree of responsibility. If we are discussing Party democracy perhaps we should consider what would be and what wouldn't be considered acceptable at a party conference or adm discussion. A little bit of thought goes a long way (again I include myslef in that)
Bijou Drains wrote:I'm not suggesting that there should be a code of "Omerta" with regard to anything to do with internal party democracy, I am however syaing that perhaps we should (me included) be a little more thoughtful about how we do this.My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular but yes I generally agree with what you say.
DJP wrote:I guess this is unlikely to be a popular suggestion, but as the person that set the forums up I think I should comment.I think the webforums should be closed down, in terms of propoganda value for the party I would say there value is not positive but negative. There's too many people using it for wringing out there favourite hobby-horse, whatever that may be, and not enough members of the public making enquiries as to what socialism is and such like, which is what the forum is supposed to be for.Or an alternative would be to rapidly delte users and comments that use the forum merely as a means for persuing their personal greivences or otherwise derail discussions from there main purpose.In short, the forum in it's present state is an embarasment. I'm glad I'm no longer associated with it or have to get involved with administering it.I think that would be the best solution
jondwhite wrote:I am open to the suggestion to close the forums. The time and effort members spend moderating it could be better spent elsewhere.We already have 3 forums besides this one. The WSM forum is more than enough for Socialist Party members, the WSM members, visitors and sympathizers. In this forum, we need a 24-hour moderator to police all the postings
Marcos wrote:jondwhite wrote:I am open to the suggestion to close the forums. The time and effort members spend moderating it could be better spent elsewhere.We already have 3 forums besides this one. The WSM forum is more than enough for Socialist Party members, the WSM members, visitors and sympathizers. In this forum, we need a 24-hour moderator to police all the postings
From my own experience there's no need to moderate this forum 24/7. My time spent on moderating is about 2-4 hours per day. The volume of postings is not the problem, its the breaches of the rules and guidelines which take up the time.
moderator1 wrote:Marcos wrote:jondwhite wrote:I am open to the suggestion to close the forums. The time and effort members spend moderating it could be better spent elsewhere.We already have 3 forums besides this one. The WSM forum is more than enough for Socialist Party members, the WSM members, visitors and sympathizers. In this forum, we need a 24-hour moderator to police all the postings
From my own experience there's no need to moderate this forum 24/7. My time spent on moderating is about 2-4 hours per day. The volume of postings is not the problem, its the breaches of the rules and guidelines which take up the time.
Using Yahoo you just moderate or block the peoples which do not follow the rules. At the WSM forum, we had a bunch of troubles makers, dropouts, renegades, and trolls and they are all gone or blocked
moderator1 wrote:Marcos wrote:jondwhite wrote:I am open to the suggestion to close the forums. The time and effort members spend moderating it could be better spent elsewhere.We already have 3 forums besides this one. The WSM forum is more than enough for Socialist Party members, the WSM members, visitors and sympathizers. In this forum, we need a 24-hour moderator to police all the postings
From my own experience there's no need to moderate this forum 24/7. My time spent on moderating is about 2-4 hours per day. The volume of postings is not the problem, its the breaches of the rules and guidelines which take up the time.
Investing 4 hours in moderation is too much, it looks like you are dealing with a Childcare centre. I was a moderator of several discussion forums who had more than one thousand members and more than four thousands messages every month, and our time invested in moderation was very minimal and all the troubles makers were kept outside
I think that DJP is correct when he wrote that this forum is an embarrassment, and it should not be called a socialist forum, and it should be closed down. We have posts supporting xenophobic conceptions, white reactionary nationalism, rejection against the emigrants and anti-socialist conceptions, and blaming them on the economic problem of capitalism and the problems that workers are facing now. Instead of workers be encouraged to embrace socialism, we see the propagation of apathy, and rejection of socialist conceptions, and reactionary conceptions of renegades and dropoutsIf any sincere worker comes to this forum looking for answers to his/ her question would leave and will join the party of the ruling class, and probably, the reactionary and neo-fascists, and neo-nazis groups that exist nowadays. We just need a few members of the Klan to join this forum. This is really incredible. The forums of the Leninists groups are not propagating that type of ideas, on the contrary, they are being rejected
Marcos wrote:I think that DJP is correct when he wrote that this forum is an embarrassment, and it should not be called a socialist forum, and it should be closed down. We have posts supporting xenophobic conceptions, white reactionary nationalism, rejection against the emigrants and anti-socialist conceptions, and blaming them on the economic problem of capitalism and the problems that workers are facing now. Instead of workers be encouraged to embrace socialism, we see the propagation of apathy, and rejection of socialist conceptions, and reactionary conceptions of renegades and dropoutsIf any sincere worker comes to this forum looking for answers to his/ her question would leave and will join the party of the ruling class, and probably, the reactionary and neo-fascists, and neo-nazis groups that exist nowadays. We just need a few members of the Klan to join this forum. This is really incredible. The forums of the Leninists groups are not propagating that type of ideas, on the contrary, they are being rejectedWait…Isn't the SPGB position that you are able to debate with people who have nationalist viewpoints, rather than 'No Platform' them?Yet here you are proposing to do exactly what the "reactionary" Left do, which is silence your opponents, by either banning the commenters or shutting down the Forum, because you can't see off your critics in debate.So if my views appear in some other form on some other forum you establish, will you shut that down as well because you can't cope and can't defeat me in debate?Isn't this, deep down, an admission that there might be flaws in the socialist case when it rubs up against the real world?
Ike Pettigrew wrote:Wait…Isn't the SPGB position that you are able to debate with people who have nationalist viewpoints, rather than 'No Platform' them?Perhaps the SPGB needs to rethink its policy as Racism is now illegal? https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance
Vin wrote:Ike Pettigrew wrote:Wait…Isn't the SPGB position that you are able to debate with people who have nationalist viewpoints, rather than 'No Platform' them?Perhaps the SPGB needs to rethink its policy as Racism is now illegal? https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance
I rest my case! The problem with your emotional, ego-driven posts, Vin, is that you succeed in proving my point. Apart from that, you also understand nothing about the law.If human nature allows a 'world of sisters', as I call your vision, then how do we explain you, Vin?The socialist case has problems when it comes up against the real world. This has been brought out in the weak responses to my contributions.
If you have anything personal to say to posters then send them a PM. See forum rules.
I don't think the SPGB ever endorse laws against "thought-crimes", nor do we agree that the State can legislate prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry out of existence.If we do close down the forum, it will be after a full debate and a conference/party poll decision. However, that is very different from the forum dying a natural death – something i previously alluded to in a past post.The socialist case has always had problems, Ike, and the main one is convincing our fellow-workers to reject the ideology that they have been indoctrinated into thinking as the only option for them to choose.You may consider our responses to be weak but i'm guessing by your continued presence, there is still something in them that you find of value, otherwise, i would think your conclusion would be that your contributions and exchanges when you engaged in debate would have been all a wasted effort.
Vin wrote:If you have anything personal to say to posters then send them a PM. See forum rules.That is completely hypocritical!You have no points to make, Vin. As somebody has pointed out early on in this thread – DJP, I think – you are one of the worst offenders on this Forum for stirring up trouble. You are a violent, egotistical, childish, immature and self-righteous thug.That is the truth about you.
Ike Pettigrew wrote:Apart from that, you also understand nothing about the law.Do you have anything other than personal attacks?I gave references on the LawSo you claim there is no Law on racism?
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