March 10, 2012 at 2:47 pm #87896Gog_Participant
I didn’t say that it was.March 10, 2012 at 4:22 pm #87897Gog_ wrote:I didn’t say that it was.
Glad to know it.Though of course the movement for socialism does arise out of the contradictory conditions of capitalism. It’s just the ‘automatically arising out of decreasing conditions’ bit I don’t agree with.March 10, 2012 at 7:17 pm #87898BrianParticipantDJP wrote:Gog_ wrote:I didn’t say that it was.
Glad to know it.Though of course the movement for socialism does arise out of the contradictory conditions of capitalism. It’s just the ‘automatically arising out of decreasing conditions’ bit I don’t agree with.
And if not why not? Are not ‘the contradictionary conditions’ and ‘decreasing conditions’ one and the same thing? An explanation would be appreciated.March 10, 2012 at 7:33 pm #87899Brian wrote:And if not why not? Are not ‘the contradictionary conditions’ and ‘decreasing conditions’ one and the same thing? An explanation would be appreciated.
Decreasing means a lessening in size, strength or quantity.I was using the word ‘contradictory’ in the dialectical sense, in the sense that capitalism is composed of various opposing tendencies, the central relation being that between wage labour and capital .For example: Competition between capitalists leads them to invest more and more in machinery and less and less in workers (labour-power) but as labour power is the source of profit this leads to a fall in the rate of profit. But there are also other factors at play which counter this tendancy, not least the devaluation of capital which occurs in a crises.So whether the economic cycle is on the up or the down the basic contradiction, and the need for socialism, is the same.So decreasing means down, the interplay of factors that make a ‘contradiction’ can go either way.Fairly basic stuff?March 10, 2012 at 9:10 pm #87900BrianParticipant
So there’s nothing “automatic” on how the contradictions and decreasing conditions play out. In fact if they were automatic it infers the class struggle is a purely mechanistic reaction of the inherent contradictions. Damn and there’s me thinking I had it all worked out and that the dialectic is not much use in illustrating how to grow some vegetables for free. LolBut seriously, lets not forget such projects like Incredible Edible could be a reaction against the decreasing conditions of capitalism and may in the long term have some positive effects in relation to grasping the whole picture with a corresponding change in the mindset.March 12, 2012 at 5:24 pm #87901ALBKeymasterALB wrote:I’m due to speak at a Zeitgeist event in Cardiff on Sunday where one of the other speakers is from the Eat for Free Project which seems to be into this sort of thing. I’ll report back on what he says.
The speaker from Eat for Free Project didn’t turn up, but growing your own food was one of the recommendations made by a ZM lecturer, Vivak Shori, for surviving in the coming period of severe deflation with falling prices, massive unemployment and shortages that he predicted would be coming within the next 2-5 years due to oil supplies running out with no effective substitute in sight and to the debt bubble bursting. A rather more alarming reason for growing your own food. I challenged him to a bet that his predicted deflation wouldn’t happen (to be called in in 2017).March 12, 2012 at 5:32 pm #87902ALB wrote:I challenged him to a bet that his predicted deflation wouldn’t happen (to be called in in 2017).
Wasn’t there also prediction in Zeitgeist Addendum that the US would have defaulted on its national debt by now? Will look it up….
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