Scottish Referendum
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ALB wrote:I'm not sure about that. Haven't most people already seen through the effing Labour Party (as we can now call the parliamentary parties) including those who vote for it, i.e they vote for it without illusions. So no need for us to spell out that the Labour Party won't do anything for workers any more than any other party.
We will have to see about that at the next election.
I think we should be concerned about what is being said on our Facebook by members of the Party https://www.facebook.com/groups/worldsocialism/10152727706882700/?notif_t=group_comment_reply
There has been in recent days a lot of comparisons made with the Catalan nationalists but little analysis of Catalan politics. Catalan independence appears to be driven by the right wing, and the father of Catalan nationalism is Jordi Pujol is now convicted of corruption.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol_i_Soleyhttp://www.economist.com/news/europe/21613309-jordi-pujols-confession-undermines-catalans-hopes-independence-scandal-cataloniaThe current Catalan leader Artur Mas, main plank is that the region is subsidising the poorer regions of Spain. Now hows that for workers solidarity!!The assumption that any future Scotland may be "liberal" is merely guess-work, just as the examples being offered by the Irish Republic demonstrates. And i think both the Czech and Slovakia republics have grown right-wing in that have very anti-Roma attitudes.
The Left Nationalists via Jim Sillars hit backs Understandable why pro-business Salmond side-lines a one-time ally.Nationalisation, new employment and redundacy laws and boycotts of retailers.http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/day-of-reckoning-post-yes-vote-says-jim-sillars-1-3539754
Quote:“This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks. The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor, poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes . BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.”I don;'t see the problem with what thopse members are saying. AFAIK we haven't agreed action line on the referendum, and iot's been noted over recent years that we can and will vote according to how we perceive class interests in referendums and plebiscites. Memebrs are not mandated. I can't recall, I think I may have voted yes in the AV referendum. I have to confess, seeing the big guns of the establishment being briought to bear would make me think about voting yes to tweak their noses.
Young Master Smeet wrote:Memebrs are not mandated.They are. When they signed up they agreed not to support any section of the capitalist class.
Vin Maratty wrote:I think we should be concerned about what is being said on our Facebook by members of the Partyhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/worldsocialism/10152727706882700/?notif_t=group_comment_replyNot necessarily. At last a debate amongst members on some political issue instead of the procedural matters that have dominated conferences and ADMs in recent years (and must be at least partially responsible for falling attendences, though maybe the internet is the new forum for debates). But a bit late. Our branch tried to get a discussion going on the Scottish referendum at this year's Conference but without much success.It is true that one thing we couldn't have anticipated then was that there is going to be a big turn-out. Which can't be a bad thing as it shows that when there is something to vote about that workers, rightly or wrongly, feel concerned about they will turn out to vote and in fact there is a sense that it will be a "historic" vote in political terms as a "yes" vote will change history. So, we can be confident that when socialism is really on the agenda workers will turn out to vote and ignore the anarchists and other anti-parliamentarists (or "andy pandies" as Glasgow branch call them). A high turn could be the one positive outcome.
Quote:"It is true that one thing we couldn't have anticipated then was that there is going to be a big turn-out. Which can't be a bad thing"It is if they are voting for the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.I think YMS may well be leading us to a place we do not want to be…Class interests are class interests…not sections or part of the class…not individual material interests. Class interests must be viewed in global terms, not national or regional terms or occupational/industrial terms. Any plebisites offered have a ruling class purpose.
The other interesting thing about the campaign from the socialist point of view is confirmation of our argument that if you want reforms a better way to get them than reformism is to demand revolution. The SNP demands "revolution", i.e. independence, and when it looks as if they might win the ruling class offers more reforms within the system, so-called devo-max, to try to buy off the movement. Maybe in fact that's even what Salmond wanted from the start.
Just back from the shops where the Yes, No and the SSP (plus Colin Fox) Yes for an Independent Socialist Scotland. In Edinburgh the Orange Order are out in the streets for a No vote but disowned by the officially No campaign as is the UKIP entry to the debate.A No leafletter said i was the third person that day to say they will not be voting either for or against independence. Maybe we did miss an opportunity to connect with some folk by not having a higher profile in the campaign. Looking back, perhaps we should have made more of a constitutional/democratic fuss over not having the Neither option on the paper to reflect all political opinions.
alanjjohnstone wrote:I think YMS may well be leading us to a place we do not want to be…Class interests are class interests…not sections or part of the class…not individual material interests. Class interests must be viewed in global terms, not national or regional terms or occupational/industrial terms.I don't know what you mean. Where don't we want to be?
Quote:it's been noted over recent years that we can and will vote according to how we perceive class interests in referendums and plebiscites.I worry that the above statement could be taken ambiguously and we present various individual perspective upon our class interests rather than a collective view of the Party of our class interest. In regards to independence this is very much a class question and the party should be expecting members to offer a class analysis…not of simply what may be in the best benefit for an individual Scot or even the majority of the Scottish people but in relation of our class as a world-wide entity. Our perception of our class interests must be beyond whatever nation or region we happen to be born in. It would be easy enough to contemplate a future government offering referendums on immigration, for instance…and i have encountered some socialists who argue that the native-born workers class interests supercede the global interest of our class.Granted, there maybe some plebisites and referendums that do not involve class interests such as , say, the US states' propositions to legalise the sale of marijuana or whatever. So what i fear is that we go to a place where individual members believe they have a luxury in picking and choosing what they consider to be our "class interests" rather than a party position reflecting the interests of our class in the context of a world socialist movement and not upon a parochial (or even an individualist) policy.I'm sure YMS has no intention of leading us down that path…but a little voice sitting on my shoulder is warning me to be wary of his comment being possibly misinterpreted (as i may have actually done).
For the completists. From the February 1979 issue of the Socialist Standard, 'Devolution or revolution?':Link: Devolution or revolution?
Which "we-evil", is the lesser of two "we-vils"? to paraphrase the Master and Commander film. Do workers in Scotland really think they will have any more say, in for instance, who gets dibs on North Sea Oil? Or who owns the landmass of Scotland? We should have been in there, putting this argument!!! does anyone really give a fart, whether the elected representative of Scotland, is Alex, or some de-facto tosser from south of the border? But we were'nt and and no one does
Alan, the party is the tool of the class, not the otehr way round, whilst we try and educate and inform workers of their interests, in referendums and plebiscites they make up their own mind on a given issue, and vote as they see fit on a case by case basis. The party campaigns as they instruct, not vice versa. The only obligation on membership is not to belong to any other political organisation.
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