Science for Communists?

[LBird]

YMS wrote:

Well, the truth sucks, don't it? I don't exist, the meatbot does.

Where did you dig this little gem of 'truth' up from, YMS?Don't bother to answer, it's a rhetorical question. As I said:

LBird wrote:

Mind you, none of this discussion, for you, is really about the problems of 'Science for Communists', is it?

[Young Master Smeet]

Considering I've discussed science in socialism at length, I think you'll fidn that is exactly what I think this thread is about.

[LBird]

Though Harman must be read critically, I think this text of his is very useful for identifying our problem (if not for helping us to solve it, because Harman was a Leninist).

Chris Harman (blog extract) wrote:

From: Philosophy and Revolution, ISJ 21 (1983)http://chrisharman.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/philosophy-and-revolution.htmlMarx argued in the Theses on Feuerbach that philosophy before him divided into two main streams.One was materialist, in the sense of recognising a world external to human sensation and thought. But it soon ran into a problem: how can we test the validity of our impressions of the world, since all our contact with the world is through these impressions?Some materialist philosophers (eg Locke) attempted to make a distinction between some impressions of the world which 'resembled' external reality, and others that didn't. But the procedure was bound to be very arbitrary and to tend to accept as 'real' that which fitted in with current ideology. It certainly proved no basis for developing a scientific perspective which challenged existing preconceptions. Some philosophers (eg Hume) drew the conclusion that we could know nothing with certainty, and what we thought of as truth was really a product of our own psychological disposition. Still others (eg Berkeley) reached back to an essentially religious conception to explain knowledge: it was God who organised our perceptions.The 'correspondence' theory of truth of the materialists seemed to work so long as no one questioned the common sense interpretations of human impressions that prevailed in existing society. The moment anyone started making critical judgements, it fell apart, giving way to idealism or scepticism.The second philosophical tendency was that of 'idealism'. The philosophers in this tradition insisted that the key to truth lay with human reasoning. Any idea we could deduce from certain basic principles was true; any idea we could not was false. The logical coherence of our ideas was the test of their truth, not any one-to-one correspondence with reality.This did not mean these philosophers denied the existence of the external world. It did mean, however, they tended to see the external world itself as in some way produced by (or corresponding to) thought (or, at least, the valuable elements in the external world as produced by thought). It was ideas (whether human or of God) which underlay what we think of as the impressions of material things.But this view led to all sorts of problems. As the German philosopher Kant showed, from simple 'first principles', it was quite easy to deduce quite opposed notions (what he called 'antinomies'). The search for coherence in the realm of ideas alone led you straight into contradiction.In the Theses on Feuerbach Marx suggests that the materialist 'correspondence' theory of truth and the idealist 'coherence' theory both fail because they are one sided.The materialist view correctly sees that human beings are part of the material world. But it fails to work out any criteria for judging how correct our knowledge of that world is. This is because it conceives of our relation to it as purely passive, contemplative. Impressions of the world around us hit us, and our brains have somehow to make sense of them.Idealism, by contrast, falls down because it tends to deny the independent existence of the external world. But it does have one advantage over traditional materialism. It sees the role of the human mind as active – as intervening in reality.Marx argued that for materialism to overcome its problems, it has to integrate this element of activity into its own ideas. It has to conceive of humanity's relationship with the world not as contemplative, but as practical.It is because human beings are engaged in transforming the world in practice that they can come to grasp which ideas about it are true and which false. Above all, it is the revolutionary activity of a class which enables it to approach the truth, because in making a practical challenge to all of existing reality it is testing all ideas about existing reality. As Marx put it:"The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but a practical question. Man must prove the truth, ie the reality and power, the this-worldliness of his thinking, in practice. The dispute over the reality and non-reality of thinking which is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question… All social life is essentially practical. All mysteries which lead theory into mysticism find their rational practical solution in human practice and in the comprehension of this practice."Althusser will have none of this. He downgrades the importance of the Theses on Feuerbach. They were produced, he claims, during the 'break', before Marx got his ideas clear. As a result they are 'riddles'. The mature Marx, he insists, did not see truth as based in revolutionary practice, but in 'theoretical practice', something done by scientists according to their own procedures. But this leads the Althusserian school into all the problems classically associated with philosophy. Althusser's starting point is that of a 'contemplative materialist', with a correspondence theory of truth. But he then has to find some criteria for distinguishing 'true' from 'false' impressions. 'Theory' (with a capital T, remember), he says, will provide the answer. This, he says, enables us to process existing notions of the world and develop more advanced ones. Theory comes to validate itself.But this merely shifts the question from being about how you distinguish a true impression from a false one, into how you distinguish a true theory from a false one. We are back in the old problem of all idealist 'coherence' theories of truth – why should one view of the world developed logically out of first principles be better than another developed in the same way?It is a very short step from Althusser to the view that there are many, different 'theoretical discourses' (a Marxist, a feminist, a psychoanalytical, etc) all equally valid – or even to the views adopted by some ex-Althusserians in France, who deny the validity of any theory. By abandoning the Theses on Feuerbach, Althusser slides down the slope from materialism through idealism to complete subjectivism!

[my bold]The key step which neither Harman nor other so-called ‘Marxists’ (really, they are Leninists in politics) make is to provide a measure of ‘better’ or ‘valid’ which overcomes these problems besetting both ‘materialism’ and ‘idealism’. That is, overcomes the problem without appealing either to elites in science or to elites in politics to provide the measure or judgement of ‘better’ or ‘valid’.The ‘measure’ for the proletariat is its own opinions (not the opinions of academics or central committees).Proletarian democracy has to determine ‘better’ and ‘valid’ by its own ‘theory and practice’ within both science and politics, and this ‘democratic and unified scientific method’ must provide the basis for a future Communist society.

Marx wrote:

All mysteries which lead theory into mysticism find their rational practical solution in human practice and in the comprehension of this practice.

[my bold]For us Communists, ‘human practice’ is always social, and its ‘comprehension’ is always social. ‘Rational Practice’ (theory and practice) can only be determined socially by the proletariat itself, collectively and democratically.

[LBird]

I’d like to give an example of this method of Critical Realism being employed by humans in trying to understand and explain both physical and social phenomena. This is also part of an attempt to realise Marx’s hope for a unified scientific method.Don’t forget, this method is Marx’s method of ‘theory and practice’ upon a world that really exists outside of the enquirer, and so we have to declare our theory first, if we are to claim that it’s a scientific method.Theories consist of two parts: an ontology (what humans claim ‘being’ is; remember, the ‘facts’ do not talk to humans) which cannot be disproved empirically (an ontology, or metaphysics, is similar to Lakatos’ ‘hard core’ of a ‘research programme’ and consists of definitions, axioms and assumptions, which pre-exist the scientific enquiry, and inescapably exist prior to ‘practice’), and a hypothesis (which is the part of theory to be tested and proved by practice, and so can be refuted empirically). Various ontologies are a part of creative human thinking, and are a product of societies.So, all humans employ theory (their ontology, often chosen for non-scientific reasons, and a discipline-based hypothesis) to guide their research and select their results. The 19th century positivists, 20th century empiricists, and today’s physicalists, lie when they say they do not have a prior ontology. We Communists must insist that Marx was correct to talk of ‘theory and practice’. Those who argue for ‘practice and theory’ are ideological inductivists, who conceal their ‘theory’, and then pretend (often to themselves) to have stumbled upon ‘theory’ in amongst their ‘empirical facts’, which they pretend to have discovered ‘objectively’. This is the mythical ‘discovery science’ excoriated by Pannekoek.So, the ontology of CR consists of components, structures, levels and emergent properties, and the belief that ‘ideas’ and ‘material’ have the same status (that is, neither is the basis of the other). These comprise the ontology of CR, and can’t be disproved empirically. They are human assumptions which exist prior to the scientific process of enquiry. They are human axioms about ‘what exists’.As an example of the CR approach to the ‘physical’, we can take the analogy of firefighting with either atoms (components, elements) or molecules (structures, compounds). [For those comrades who are not familiar with chemistry, water is nothing more than hydrogen and oxygen]. If the firefighters place water on a fire, it is extinguished. But if they place hydrogen and oxygen, in their raw, separated state, on the fire, then an explosion results.Here we have components which if put together in a specific relational structure produce an emergent property. That is, hydrogen and oxygen chemically combined produce ‘wetness’, which extinguishes fire. This ‘wetness’ does not exist at the level of the component elements hydrogen or oxygen, but emerges at the structural level of molecules of water. At the component level, hydrogen and oxygen are explosive, not wet.The obvious example of the CR approach to the ‘social’ is Marx’s explanation of ‘value’. If we take a tin of beans as an example of a commodity, it is clear that ‘value’ does not exist in the tin of beans. It’s not included amongst the list of ingredients on the label, and that’s because ‘value’ is not an ingredient of either beans or tin cans. But, just like with regarding chemical components as part of a ‘water structure’, if the tin is observed as part of the structure of capitalism, then we can perceive the social relationships between all of the commodities (tins of beans and every other useful thing) as producing ‘capitalism’. And just as water has emergent properties like ‘wetness’ which has the power to put out fires, so capitalism has emergent properties like ‘value’ which has the power to compel human individuals to act in ways detrimental to themselves, whether capitalists or workers.

Marx, Capital I, p. 739, wrote:

But, so far as he is personified capital, it is not values in use and the enjoyment of them. but exchange-value and its augmentation, that spur him into action. Fanatically bent on making value expand itself, he ruthlessly forces the human race to produce for production’s sake; he thus forces the development of the productive powers of society, and creates those material conditions, which alone can form the real basis of a higher form of society, a society in which the full and free development of every individual forms the ruling principle. Only as personified capital is the capitalist respectable. As such, he shares with the miser the passion for wealth as wealth. But that which in the miser is a mere idiosyncrasy, is, in the capitalist, the effect of the social mechanism, of which he is but one of the wheels. Moreover, the development of capitalist production makes it constantly necessary to keep increasing the amount of the capital laid out in a given industrial undertaking, and competition makes the immanent laws of capitalist production to be felt by each individual capitalist, as external coercive laws. It compels him to keep constantly extending his capital, in order to preserve it…

[my bold]https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch24.htm#S3Capitalism cannot be understood at the level of components (commodities, individuals), but only at the structural level (socio-economics, or Political Economy). And whereas the emergent property of ‘wetness’ can have beneficial powers for humans, like putting out fires or quenching our thirst (although it can also drown us!), the emergent property of ‘value’ is entirely detrimental to humanity. It has no redeeming features. It’s not too rhetorical to call value a ‘social acid’, so that rather than having some constructive features, it is entirely destructive.Neither Hayek, Keynes nor Piketty can observe ‘value’ because their choice of ideology (ie. a theory comprising ontology and method) doesn’t allow them to ‘see’ it. But we do have an ideology which does: Marx’s scientific method of theory and practice, combined with his Communism.It’s my opinion that Critical Realism combined with Communism gives us the unified scientific method that Marx argued was possible. It is the humanising of nature.Communism without Critical Realism has to erroneously rely on Engels’ mistaken beliefs about ‘dialectical’ nature and unexamined 19th century positivism. Critical Realism without Communism remains a plaything of liberals and radicals, who try to keep the separation of physical nature from social humanity. But Marxism can combine both Communism and Critical Realism (which is simply a synonym for Marx’s ‘theory and practice’, and reflects his double-barrelled usage of ‘material’ and ‘history’) into a proletarian science to help workers to understand and explain their world (physical and social) in the process of building for Communism. This unified science will then form the basis of human science after we get rid of capitalism.

Karl Marx, EPM, CW3 pp. 303-4, wrote:

History itself is a real part of natural history – of nature developing into [hu]man[ity]. Natural science will in time incorporate into itself the science of [hu]man[ity], just as the science of [hu]man[ity] will incorporate into itself natural science: there will be one science.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm

[twc]

What the Theses on Feuerbach are About The Theses on Feuerbach are Marx’s final severance, his parting of the ways, with subjective philosophical thought.They record Marx’s discovery of how society actually comes to comprehend objective truth. 1. The Inverted Consciousness of an Inverted WorldMarx’s road to the Theses from 1843 to 1845:1843.  Marx¹  farewells the criticism of religion “which has been essentially completed”, and embarks on the criticism of a society that needs religion.Marx develops the insight that an “inverted” society breeds an “inverted consciousness”.² Marx reduces all thought—not just religious thought—to expressions of social conditions.  He establishes himself as the arch materialist.1844.  Marx³  investigates the social production of “inverted consciousness” [or “false consciousness”]:  hence his fixation on “alienation” [mutual “self-estrangement”]. Marx recognizes that:all philosophy, including his own, succumbs to his materialist critique;materialism and philosophy are mutually incompatible—each, on its own terms, subverts the other.He seeks a non-philosophical criterion of truth.1845.  Marx⁴  makes the breakthrough.  He discovers the objectivity inherent in social practice.2.  The Objectivity of Social PracticeHere we follow Marx’s “objectivity-of-social-practice” trail throughout his Theses on Feuerbach:⁵ Thesis I.“Feuerbach does not conceive human activity as objective activity”.i.e. Marx does conceive human activity as objective activity.Thesis II.“whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is a practical question.”i.e. objective truth is not an attribute of thought but of practice;objective truth derives from practice, not from thought.consciousness, being subjective, derives its objectivity solely from social practice.“Man must prove the [objective] truth of his thinking in practice”i.e. man must translate his thought into practice in order to prove its objective truth.⁶ “The [objective] reality or non-reality of thinking which is isolated from practice is purely scholastic”i.e. philosophical “reality” is imagined “reality” like all products of the imagination:  religion, myth, fiction;Thesis III.“The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and [the changing] of human activity [= social practice], or self-change, can be conceived and rationally understood only as revolutionary practice.”⁷ Thesis V.“Feuerbach does not conceive sensuousness as practical, human-sensuous activity.”i.e. Marx does conceive sensuousness as practical, human-sensuous activity;social life depends on our treating “sensuous” phenomena practically [= objectively];we approach “sensuous” appearance practically [= objectively];we survive because we take “sensuous” appearance to be objective;we can objectively gather “sensuous” [= empirical] data about the world that is itself objective.⁸ Thesis VIII.“All social life is essentially practical.”⁹ i.e. thought is ultimately a superstructural aid to practice.“All mysteries which lead theory to mysticism find their rational solution in human practice and in the comprehension of this practice.”i.e. thought can spin fantasies without objective [= practical] restraint;thought can ignore the constraints of objective reality without objective consequence;practice must comply with the constraints of objective reality, or else suffer objective consequences;i.e. objective thought can be nothing other than the comprehension of objective practice.Thesis XI.“The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it.”In addition to its obvious revolutionary meaning and implications…philosophy is powerless to anchor socialism objectively;social life is essentially practical;(for the benefit of voluntarists) consciousness is superstructural to social practice;revolutionary Marx entered the search for objectivity as a thinking philosopher, and leaves it as a practicing scientist.3.  Notes ⁽¹⁾ Marx: A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right [1843–44], Introduction. ⁽²⁾ Joseph McCarney, in a parade of scholarly ineptitude, omitted to perform a thesaural expansion of his search term “false consciousness”, and so let slip through his leaky sieve the associated terms “inverted consciousness”, “self-estrangement” and “alienation”.  Consequently McCarney missed Marx’s classic reference to “inverted consciousness”¹  that everyone knows by heart.McCarney’s slipshod scholarship explodes his [anti]marx myth on (since L&W withdrew MECW) the [anti]Marx Internet Archive. ⁽³⁾ Marx: Philosophical and Economic Manuscripts of 1844. ⁽⁴⁾ Marx: Theses on Feuerbach. ⁽⁵⁾ The terms objectivity and practice are italicized throughout to emphasize Marx’s key discovery of the “social objectivity of social practice”. ⁽⁶⁾ Engels paraphrases Thesis II in Socialism, Utopian and Scientific, “human action [= social practice] solved the difficulty long before human ingenuity [= philosophical thought] invented it.  The proof of the pudding [= objective truth] is in the eating [= social practice].” ⁽⁷⁾ Thesis III states that, if circumstances determine men, men can only determine circumstances and so change themselves by changing circumstances through revolutionary [= not normal] practice [cf. Thomas Kuhn], ⁽⁸⁾ For the mature Marx of Capital, “sensuous” appearance is both objective and concrete.  It finds its abstract explanation in science, and provides science with its criterion of scientific objectivity. ⁽⁹⁾ The mature Marx, in his classic formulation of the materialist conception of history in his famous Preface to A Contribution towards a Critique of Political Economy, gets to the heart of the matter “social being determines consciousness”.

[LBird]

I've said this before, twc, and I'll say it again.It's a shame that you won't engage in discussion, as opposed to just blindly repeating Engelsianism.

twc wrote:

The Theses on Feuerbach are Marx’s final severance, his parting of the ways, with subjective philosophical thought.They record Marx’s discovery of how society actually comes to comprehend objective truth.

This is an assertion which does not stand up to any examination.If you disagree with my characterisation of Critical Realism as being (a) very close to Marx's own method, and which helps us to explain 'value' to workers; and (b) a potential source, when combined with a Communist ideology, of a unified scientific method that Marx sought, then why not engage with me?Finally, my overall philosophical approach, with its intimate emphasis on proletarian democracy being necessary for all human activity (political, economic and scientific), is the one more suited to the supposed views of the SPGB.In constrast, your Engelsianism, with its 19th century emphasis on 'objective truth', is a philosophy more suited to the Leninist conception of workers' consciousness, and the need for a cadre party and central committee, who pretend to have access to 'objective reality', whilst the masses clearly don't, and so is fundamentally undemocratic.

[Anonymous]

Your last post has been said by you a hundred times. You really do need to change the record, LBird. Why not engage with what is being said to you instead of repeating yourself with the same old insult and accusations that we are all Ignorant Stalinists or Leninists.  

[LBird]

Vin Maratty wrote:

Your last post has been said by you a hundred times. You really do need to change the record, LBird. Why not engage with what is being said to you instead of repeating yourself with the same old insult and accusations that we are all Ignorant Stalinists or Leninists.

I can, and will, keep saying it, too.Particularly since no-one in the SPGB seems to be able to argue a sustainable position which opposes it. Especially not you.It's simple, Vin. The nonsense that twc, DJP, you and others are putting forward is of no use for the workers' movement, because the political ideology based upon that Engelsian philosophy is Leninism.The simplest of tests is to ask "who determines 'truth'?".The religious and idealists say 'god'.The Engelsian-Leninists and materialists say 'objective reality' (but they won't disclose their method for accessing this 'objective truth').The Marxists and 'idealist-materialists' say 'the proletariat'.That's what Marx's Theses on Feuerbach was all about.I can clearly say that 'democratic methods' should be used by humanity for all of its social activities, including science, but none of you can say that.You're all bluffers about workers' power and Socialism.Half of you are bourgeois individualists, and the other half are crypto-Leninists.At least there is some hope, though, from those who aren't posting in opposition to me, and are reading the arguments carefully, as I know some are.

[Anonymous]

Bolshevism/Leninism is a combination of Ferdinand LaSalle's  conception of the Vanguard Party, ( and the Second International/Kautsky )  and the theory of the Permanent revolution of Leon Trotsky, and the Socialist Party does not support anyone of both conceptions.Lenin's vanguard party concept was considered by him as a  particular situation only applicable to  Russia, and in certain moment he was not going to re-edit his book, they continue using it to control the workers from the top. Most Leninists are LaSalleans The Socialist Party is the only political party in the whole world ( all countries, provinces,  islands and continents ) that was able to distance itself from Leninism/Bolshevism and Stalinism ( Stalin was the founder of the concept of Marxism-Leninism ) . I was a militant, founder, or related to several big and large political  organizations in different countries,  which are dead now, or reduced to ashes, including the Party of Labor of Albania, and none of them can tie the shoe laces of the Socialist Party . I can put my head in the guillotine to confirm thatVladimir Lenin used certain conception of Frederick Engels, but it does not mean that Engels was completely wrong like Lenin was,  and he did not distort socialism like Lenin did, therefore, I do not see the relationship between Leninism/ Bolshevism and the Socialist Party.I have my personal critiques against Engels, but I do not think that he was a proto-Leninist, personally, I am grateful toward the works of Engels because by reading him I was able to get into the workers movement, and I was able to have in my hands volume 2 and 3 of Capital which were edited by him. I did not come to the workers movement seating on a rocking chair, I also risked my life, but by reading the works of Engels ( right or wrong ) I was able to see a new world of thoughtsEngels is one of the few member of the upper class who was  able to betray his own class origin,( I have seen many workers betraying their own class origin ) and he spent most of the days of his life working for the cause of the working class, and he also invested his own personal resources in order to print Marx works, and he  is also a sign of good friendship between two friends, and he defended Marx until the final days of his life. I have never seen that kind of close friendship within  any political organization I am pretty sure about that because I came from the Leninist movement, and I know Leninism pretty well, and I have read and studied all the works of Lenin, Stalin and Mao, and that Is the reason why I joined the Socialist Party ( WSM ) because it was and it is totally different to Leninism/Stalinism/Bolshevism,  and Leftism.I hate peoples who like to put mud and shits on top of the Socialist Party, because I know its history, and I personally admire the works done by his founders, and they were brave persons who in some way risked their lives, and they were not seating on a rocking chair contemplating the world We do not need intellectualism in the socialist movement, that is an old petty bourgeois conception that I went theoreticians many years ago, surrounded by a bunch of theoreticians,  what we need is a simple socialist theory to be inserted in our heads in order to overthrow capitalism, and we are not going to overthrow capitalism pretending to know more than anybody else

[LBird]

mcolome1 wrote:

Vladimir Lenin used certain conception of Frederick Engels, but it does not mean that Engels was completely wrong like Lenin was, and he did not distort socialism like Lenin did, therefore, I do not see the relationship between Leninism/ Bolshevism and the Socialist Party.I have my personal critiques against Engels, but I do not think that he was a proto-Leninist, personally, I am grateful toward the works of Engels because by reading him I was able to get into the workers movement, and I was able to have in my hands volume 2 and 3 of Capital which were edited by him.

I'm not criticising Engels as a historian, as good friend of Marx, as an editor or as a revolutionary. I admire him in those aspects. But I've said this before, to other comrades who seem to think that any criticism of Engels (or, indeed, Marx) is beyond the pale. Well, it isn't, if we profess to be critical thinkers.I'm criticising Engels as a shit philosopher, whose complete nonsense about 'materialism' and 'dialectics in nature' gave politicians like Lenin the fig-leaf of philosophical cover for their anti-proletarian ideology, that only a select few of cadre can come to class consciousness. It merely reflects 19th century elite thinking, that bourgeois academics are required to do the thinking for humanity, and the rest of us are too dumb to run our world. This infected both politics and science.

mcolome1 wrote:

We do not need intellectualism in the socialist movement, that is an old petty bourgeois conception that I went theoreticians many years ago, surrounded by a bunch of theoreticians, what we need is a simple socialist theory to be inserted in our heads in order to overthrow capitalism, and we are not going to overthrow capitalism pretending to know more than anybody else.

I fundamentally disagree with you here, comrade.We do need the proletariat to produce its own intellectuals, and it needs to be a mass movement, too. Workers need to develop as thoereticians, and the last thing we need is 'a simple socialist theory inserted in our heads'. We need our class to produce more and more critical thinkers, in order to combat the bourgeoisie's academics, like Piketty, who will only derail our movement. I'm all for simplifying much of Marx's output, in order to generate some understanding and thus discussion, but building Communism will never be 'simple'.And we do need to 'know more than anybody else'. If we don't believe that 'we know best', and draw confidence from that knowledge, then we are beaten before we begin. We have to attract the best thinkers in our society, both proletarian and bourgeois, to undermind the ruling class at its heart. This can't be done by 'simple socialist theory', but only by educated, confident, critical workers, determined to run their own world.

[Anonymous]

LBird wrote:

I fundamentally disagree with you here, comrade.We do need the proletariat to produce its own intellectuals, 

 Elite? 

[LBird]

Vin Maratty wrote:

LBird wrote:

I fundamentally disagree with you here, comrade.We do need the proletariat to produce its own intellectuals, and it needs to be a mass movement, too. Workers need to develop as thoereticians…

[my completion of quote] Elite? 

No, just selection, driven by your theory, rather than 'objective facts'.

[Anonymous]

I do not think you understood what I wrote,or what I was trying to express, or probably you do not know Leninism pretty well. I will repeat again: Lenin did not adopt his concept of the vanguard party, and the concept of the cadres from Engels, he adopted it from the Second International, that conception came after Engels, he did not have an elite mentalityBy intellectualism I mean to be academic. workers do not have to  be academic in order to understand socialism,( and there is not any relationship between academia and culture )  and that is what you are trying to do in this forum, even more, there are many workers who are not going to read what we are discussing in this thread, in any way, we do not need any philosophy, and we do not need any philosophers, and we do not even know what form of organization the workers might adopt if they become socialists.We do not need Marx or Engels, what we need are human beings with the same class consciousness that they had, and the advanced sociological and anthropological knowledge that both had. We are not Marxists, we are socialists, and Marx was not a Marxist either, it was an unintentional mistake of Engels when he used the expression with BakuninEngels before than Marx was the real economists and Marx was the philosophers, and many ideas expressed on his 1844 Manuscripts were altered later on by him, when he wrote his early writing he did not know anything about Anthropology, sociology, or Economics, and some of his early writing contains several mistakes, therefore, Engels was not the only one who made mistakes, both made many mistakes.Marx supported excessively several bourgeois nationalist revolutions, and his ideas were also used by Lenin, to develop his theory on the Colonial question, and Imperialism,  and Rosa Luxemburg had a much better stand than Marx and Lenin  in regard to the national question, and his daughter Eleanor had a much better stand in regard to the women questionThe question is, If Marx knew that Engels were making too many mistakes on his philosophical conception why he did not raise any critiques against him ? Marx knew pretty well that dialectic was not applicable to natureAfter Engels read the book of Lewis Morgan they were forced to change his definition of history, and their definition of class struggle,and class ideology, despite some mistakes that he made on his book on the Family, he made certain contributions to Anthropology, and personally I think that Marx was more inclined toward Anthropology than to philosophy and political economy.For Marx philosophy is what he called the German Ideology, and he said that political economy was a trashIf you think that the Socialist Party is a Leninist/Stalinist organization, I think you have made the wrong choice, because personally I will never join forces with Leninist and Stalinist, and I have not seen any elitism and criminal in this organization. Raya Dunayeskaya was pushed from the escalator of the third floor of a building by Stalinists, because she was the personal secretary of Leon Trotsky,  and Stalinist would have  killed,  or make threat against the members of others organizations because they were against Stalin, and in this organization we can have different point of view, and we do not have a central committee

[LBird]

I agree with much of what you say, mcolome1. I'm always attacking academics, not least the idiot Piketty, and agree that both Marx and Engels made mistakes. We even agree that workers need class consciousness and 'advanced sociological and anthropological knowledge'.But this is our key difference:

mcolome1 wrote:

I do not think you understood what I wrote,or what I was trying to express, or probably you do not know Leninism pretty well. I will repeat again: Lenin did not adopt his concept of the vanguard party, and the concept of the cadres from Engels, he adopted it from the Second International, that conception came after Engels, he did not have an elite mentality

I do understand what you're writing, and you're expressing it well. The problem is, I disagree about your view of Engels and his philosophy of nature. It was not only Lenin, but also the Second International in its entirety, that looked to Engels for guidance on these matters. Marx didn't write much on the issue of science/ontology/epistemology, and what he did write wasn't published until well after the Russian Revolution of 1917. So, the nature of 'Marxism' for those who adopted it prior to the publication of the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts was, in fact, 'Engelsism'.This is what we have to deal with. Much of what passes, even today, as 'Marxism', is actually 'Engelsism'. We can see that on this very thread. Marx was an 'idealist-materialist' (if you can accept that terminology as it refers to the concepts used in the Theses on Feuerbach), not a 'materialist'. Engels' 'materialism' was a throwback to before the Theses, and ditched the insights Marx provided, into the 'active side' of humanity. Rocks do not talk to humans. Humans ask questions of rocks.The outcome of this philosophising, though, is fundamentally about our politics.If we accept that 'rocks talk to us' (materialism/physicalism), then those who claim to be able to hear the rocks are a separate minority from society, because humans can't hear rocks. The minority lie to us, whether in science or politics. Leninists are the scientists of society. Both are an unelected elite, who maintain their power by pretending to know something that the masses don't.Engels 19th century positivist understanding of science is responsible for this erroneous basis to 'Marxism'.As I keep saying, for the worker confused by these issues, they simply have to ask 'Do you agree with democratic controls on all of your activities? The academic, elite scientist will answer 'No!', and the cadre, elite Leninist will answer 'No!'. This is actually the answer on this thread from a number of posters, who are members of the SPGB: 'No to workers' democracy in science'.I'm a Communist and Marxist, mcolome1, and believe that the proletariat can come to consciousness of all its activities, political, economic, social, cultural, ideological, scientific, and must employ democratic methods in all of these areas.Those who look to Engels' philosophy of science cannot do this. This thread proves that.Engels' philosophy is not a suitable basis for the SPGB's strategy of democracy. Marx's radical democracy is.

[LBird]

For anyone who's interested in these issues, of "Engels versus Marx", reading this from John Rees of the SWP will prove enlightening. He makes a very good opening, outlining the criticisms and arguments that I've also made of Engels, but then, in contrast to me, goes on to defend the unity of "Marx-Engels".http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/rees-j/1994/xx/engels.htmReading this might provide some good arguments for those who disagree with me; but perhaps they'll then end up following Rees' politics, too!

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