Russian Tensions

August 2022 Forums General discussion Russian Tensions

Viewing 15 posts - 1,366 through 1,380 (of 2,080 total)
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  • #228160

    And their slogan of Land, Bread and Freedom is similar to the Narodnik. Everything about the Marxist conceptions of the Bolsheviks is only a mythology

    #228163
    1stworldview
    Blocked
    #228167

    I do not know if it is true but there are some reports indicating that several FSB Officers in Russia have been arrested and some generals have been removed from their posts

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10603045/Putin-places-head-FSBs-foreign-intelligence-branch-house-arrest.html

    #228169
    #228171
    1stworldview
    Blocked
    #228172
    alien1
    Participant

    Why on earth would anyone read, let alone quote the Daily Mail?

    #228173
    ALB
    Keymaster

    We are not expected to believe that obvious Ukraine state propaganda, are we? And from the sensationalist Daily Mail (though the Guardian and the Independent willingly echo Ukrainian state propaganda too).

    Here’s another example of obvious propaganda since we seem to exchanging examples:

    “Large numbers’ of Belarusian troops refusing to join Russian invasion: Ukraine

    The Ukrainian Ministry of Defence says the possibility exists that Belarus’s army may join the Russian invasion, but its intelligence indicates that “a large number of personnel and some commanders are refusing to participate” in the war.”

    #228174
    ALB
    Keymaster

    The ICC statements on the war have generally been good but there is an odd passage in this one:

    “Our solidarity with the KRAS comrades does not imply that we agree with all the contents of the statement, such as the demand for “an immediate end to hostilities” which seems to be a concession to the idea that the two bourgeois camps can make peace.”

    I would have thought that, from the point of view of the immediate interest of the workers, an immediate stop to the killing and destruction is what is required. It may not be likely to happen but it’s a demand that any organisation committed to the interest of the working class should make.

    Some of the other KRAS slogans are more dubious and/or just as unlikely to occur (calls for strikes, mutinies), not that this is preventing us publishing their statement in next month’s Socialist Standard.

    #228175
    pgb
    Participant

    DJP: You are right to say that “the world doesn’t split into nice defined geographical areas where everyone within them form a nice distinct group that share the same interests, identities or desires.” I don’t know of any state that doesn’t contain regional and sectional differences among its population, though there may be one or two. But people sharing the same identities don’t necessarily have the one identity. Most groups I know of have more than one, and some, multiple identities. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. One identity doesn’t exclude the other. In Australia for example, there are several groups who identify themselves in terms of a foreign country like Vietnam and strongly defend their Vietnamese cultural identity and their Vietnamese kinship group. Many also identify as Catholics. But they also identify themselves as Australian citizens. The unity of nations is defined by what they have in common as against other groups, and not by their internal homogeneity.

    I think because you have made much of the separation between the state and its subjects, you may have missed the fact that many workers identify with a nation state as citizens, not as mere subjects. This has occurred where they have been integrated (incorporated, assimilated) into the dominant political institutions and its system of rules, as has happened I think in most advanced capitalist countries with broadly democratic political systems. Where I live, workers generally support their dominant political institutions (representative government etc). Their class identity, ethnic identity, religious identity, has not prevented such workers from seeing the place they live in as in some sense “their country (or nation)”. Class identity etc. did not prevent English, French or German workers from seeing Britain, France and Germany as in some sense “their country” in World Wars I and II. Tragic it surely was, but it’s an historical fact.

    The history of the twentieth century shows that national identity has been politically dominant and class identity has been secondary, and that working class consciousness (eg, TU collectivism) is secondary to other kinds of consciousness. Which is not to say that this must always be the case, or that we shouldn’t strive to bring about a truly world-wide society with no nations or national boundaries, as implied in your position that “the working people have no country.” But it is an ideal yet to be realized, and therefore has limited relevance to what’s going on now in Ukraine where what you call “illusory ideas” of nationalism are very much real in the minds of those who hold them and thus help explain why Ukrainian workers, including many ethnic Russians, fight in the name of “their country” against a primordial nationalist like Putin.

    PS. Thanks for the reference to gegen-kapital. It’s very long and I haven’t had time to read it yet.

    #228176
    DJP
    Participant

    Why on earth would anyone read, let alone quote the Daily Mail?

    Because it confirms and validates their already existing beliefs / prejudices / hopes. There’s no other reason anyone else would look at it, except for a laugh.

    #228177
    DJP
    Participant

    pgb: “The unity of nations is defined by what they have in common as against other groups, and not by their internal homogeneity.”

    This seems like a contradiction to me. If what makes national unity is a perception of a shared characteristic / characteristics then the most unified nation would be one where the most people share that characteristic i.e one that has a high amount of internal homogeneity.

    “you may have missed the fact that many workers identify with a nation state as citizens, not as mere subjects”

    Not at all. It is because of the fact that most workers identify with the nation state that we are having this conversation, not in spite of it.

    “Class identity etc. did not prevent English, French or German workers from seeing Britain, France and Germany as in some sense “their country” in World Wars I and II. Tragic it surely was, but it’s an historical fact.”

    Well yes, but I’m not sure how this goes against the argument that nationalism is not a concept that socialists should be using or promoting.

    “But it is an ideal yet to be realized, and therefore has limited relevance to what’s going on now in Ukraine where what you call “illusory ideas” of nationalism are very much real in the minds of those who hold them and thus help explain why Ukrainian workers, including many ethnic Russians, fight in the name of “their country” against a primordial nationalist like Putin.”

    Yes, nationalism does explain why some Ukrainians and Russains are putting their life on the line. Illusionary ideas (religion / nationalism / race etc) do play a real role in the world, I don’t know how anyone could deny that.

    Actually I think it’s a bit cheap to play the moral high ground or to try to offer advice to people in Ukraine right now. No-one there is going to see our words anyhow. The question is how do we, as a small minority with little influence, respond to what is going on there. I think playing the flag waving game is counter-productive to our aims. I also think that saying that not “taking sides”, or criticising the Ukrainian state, strengthens the Putin regime (as Kliman and friends did in that article) is a touch melodramatic and also overestimates the influence we have in the world.

    “Thanks for the reference to gegen-kapital. It’s very long and I haven’t had time to read it yet.”

    It is a little long. If you’re short on time just jump to the section on self-determination.

    #228178
    1stworldview
    Blocked

    So we are not to expect any mutineering / class consciousness on any soldier’s part? Depressing.

    Rather puts paid to any hope, too, that, ordered to fire nuclear missiles, anyone would disobey (as one or two on this forum seemed to hope).

    Nope. They’ll all obey. Adieu, life on Earth.

    #228179
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Yes, the end of the world is nigh, as the original Abiezer Coppe, the 17th century Ranter preached (before he calmed down after it didn’t happen).

    #228180

    I published one article from the daily Mail questioning the veracity of the events that they were reporting and the same events were published in the Washington post, New York Times and Miami herald. At the present time all newspapers are sensationalists including the leftists Rt in English, Spanish and French is worst

    #228184
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    FYI

    Abiezer_Coppe wished to be deleted from the forum

    Still inexperienced I ended up attributing all his posts to another user, 1stWorldview, a non-active poster who I have now blocked since i have no idea of fixing my faux pas

    Apologies to Anthony and others for the confusion.

    I know what to do now for the next occasion

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