Russian Tensions
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https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/07/22/mvxy-j22.html
This is the opinion of a Trotskyist group about Glory to Ukraine
According to the Russian KGB that was member of this forum most Ukrainian are nazis, and they must be executed. and Thomas Moore ironically said: Including three months babies. As a journalist wrote: Fascism has two sides, fascism and anti fascism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini
The concept of Nazism/Fascism defined by the leftists is totally different to the concept of our publications, they omit two important aspects which are the dictatorship of one single party and extreme nationalism
Exactly. I don’t see what the issue is Paula. Anyone who supports that and the cause of nationalism should be vigorously opposed. You´ve opposed this stupid barbaric war in no less vigorous terms and good on you
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To oppose bourgeois nationalism is not an insult, on the contrary, it should be denounced all the time, and Marxism and socialism is a critical theory. Nationalism is a deadly enemy of socialism
Once again, Robbo can’t comprehend why anybody would want to resist an invader who wants to subjugate them by surrendering their independence to an imperialist autocrat who will likely kill them if they resist. He can only believe that they fight over “a tacky piece of cloth on a flagpole somewhere” or what ALB calls “rags at the end of a pole”. Both seem blind to the fact that when Ukrainians fight they might be fighting to defend their right to live in their own country with the right to choose their own government, something de-nied them by Putin who believes that Ukraine is not a real country at all but is actually part of Russia.
Robbo and ALB have such a visceral hatred of flag-waving that they cannot see that patriotism, despite Dr. Johnson’s claim that it is the last refuge of a scoundrel, can also be the ordinary refuge of ordinary men and women particularly when they are the victims of a war of aggression as are the ordinary people of Ukraine. Like it or not, that’s how the world is.
Their answer to the question of where responsibility and blameworthiness lies defies credence because they claim that Putin and Zelensky are equally responsible, and so equally guilty of war crimes etc. whereas in reality it was a war of choice by Putin who declared war on Zelensky. As I read her post, Lizzie 45 has at-tributed the blame for war crimes on Putin, and rightly so because it was Putin’s army that has sent missiles into civilian apartment blocks, houses, and schools. As everyone who knows anything about international law, these are war crimes. You don’t have to read Geoffrey Robertson to know that. We can add the kid-napping of children to the list of horrors. I have not seen any credible evidence that the Ukrainian side has done the same, which is not to say that Ukrainian soldiers haven’t done some nasty things and deserve to be condemned for it. But here we get into the distinction between the justness of a war and justice in the war – a distinction unknown to SPGBers it seems.
When ALB declares that “the best immediate thing that could happen from a working class point of view is a ceasefire to stop the killing”, who would disagree? But then who would disagree that the citizens of Ukraine have a right to resist an aggressor even if it involves the use of arms and waving “a rag at the end of a pole”? Is that moral dilemma beyond the ken of ALB? His preferred solution to the war in Ukraine is presented as the best thing from a working class point of view. But what exactly is the view of the Ukrainian working class? He doesn’t know any more than I do. But I would wager that if we could conduct a poll of Ukrainian workers we would find majority support for resisting the Russian forces. In time they may also decide that the cost of continuing is too much to bear. If so, that would not render their belief in their right to resist Putin invalid despite what Robbo and ALB might think. More likely than not they would find Robbo and ALBs views about their “true interests” risible and insulting.
Since the formation of the SPGB we have never approved nationalism, patriotism, and war of national liberation, as well we have never approved any type of wars including the Vietnam when we did not support the vietcong, and we did not support the so called patriotic of war of the Soviet Union
Nationalists are going to find thousands of reasons to approve and support wars of national liberation and the killing of workers against others workers, we have not found any reasonable arguments to support any of them
The point of view of Robbo and Adam are in accordance with the principles of the Socialist Party .
The point of view of Rosa Luxembourg are more correct than the point of view of millions of nationalists, patriots and supporter of the so called war of national liberation which only liberate one ruling class from the domination of another ruling class.
The concept of patriotism spread by the ruling class and the left wingers have only produced the death of many workers around the world, and hate among workers,
As Marx and Engels clearly wrote: Workers have not country, or as Eugene Debs said : I have not country to fight for, my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world
PGB
It is difficult to know where to start with dissecting the utter nonsense you come out with. I take it you are some sort of liberal and so perhaps will find it difficult to comprehend the deep repugnance socialists feel towards nationalism and flag-waving that you refer to.
You write almost as if socialists are indifferent to the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine and to the consequences for the local population, On the contrary, the very ideology you endorse as a liberal – nationalism – lies behind the actions of the invader just as much as the invaded. We oppose it in both instances. You have that much in common with the hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers who invaded Ukraine – your unwavering belief in the historical fiction called the “nation”. We don’t.
While we are at it, what is your view of Donbas when it decided to break away from Ukraine following the illegal 2014 coup there? What´s sauce for the goose is surely sauce for the gander as well. Do you condemn the Ukrainian military´s bombardment of Donbas since 2014 (and in contravention of the Minsk agreement) with the loss of some 8000 civilian lives (if my memory serves me correctly)? I bet you don’t. I bet you have conveniently forgotten about that but that was part of the reason why Russia invaded was it not? Again I am not in the least trying to justify that invasion. I am just pointing out that like all nationalists you present a very one-sided simplistic version of history in favour of your own preferred nation.
Then we have the current military situation which makes the case for an immediate cessation of war all the stronger. The Ukraine counter-offensive has run out of steam and is not going to go anywhere. Even its NATO backers are beginning to concede this point. The Russian military by all accounts is getting stronger and has learnt from the mistakes of the early part of the campaign. There is talk of them moving to take Odessa which will cut off Ukraine from the sea. There is also some signs of them moving westwards up in the northern sector. And yet the Zelensky regime dreams on about retaking Donbas and Crimea, a dream which presumably you and Lizzie45 share never mind what the people living there might think about that.
For all the delirious rubbish posted by the MSM every day in my feed, Ukraine is running out of options. It has lost so many soldiers and equipment that it is but a pale shadow of what it once was. As I understand, it has not been able to penetrate even the first line of defense set up by the Russians (of which there are 3) and seems less and less likely to do so with every passing day.
This was the context of my earlier comment that it made pragmatic sense to end the war now rather than waste thousands more lives in a pointless military adventure. But it seems you and Lizzie45 don’t seem to care much about those lives that will wasted. You don’t value them above the importance you attach to your own flag-waving nationalist idealism and that sacrosanct nation-state you genuflect towards.
You lecture us socialists about what the Ukrainian workers want. Well, for your information more and more of them want to escape Ukraine and avoid the fighting. But that lunatic zealot, Zelensky, and his regime have widened the conscription net to ensure a larger supply of cannon fodder to serve the fanatical goal of retaking Donbas and Crimea. Even kids are being called up. Ukrainians who fled Ukraine are now at risk of being deported back to Ukraine.
Of course, when things go pear-shaped it will be alright for Mr Zelensky. He can afford to play wargames now while the Ukrainian working class suffers. He can use his millions to find a safe haven in the US or anywhere else in the world that would have him. (I understand he has already purchased one or two expensive homes abroad). That is if he is not deposed and put on trial first – if not assassinated.
One or two things you said are true, though. It is undoubtedly true that the majority of Ukrainian workers are nationalist-minded – like the majority everywhere else. But since when does being in the majority make your opinion automatically right? I am sure the majority of North Korean workers enthusiastically endorse the repulsive Kim Jung Un regime. Are we supposed to think that the regime there must be OK because it has mass support?
Socialists have never been deterred by the fact that we are at the moment a tiny minority so what is the point of you telling us what you think the majority of Ukrainian workers might think? What they might think doesn’t necessarily make them right
Being willing to die for a capitalist state is beyond stupid. Let’s say it like it is. What is the point of it? There is no sense of national glory to experience when you are dead. When you are dead you are dead. Thats it. Anyone with any sense would want to make a decision that would ensure they remain alive.
Personally, I don’t give a fig about the “national humiliation” one is supposed to feel upon surrendering. At least one would still be alive. You might want to go on about the oppression that Ukrainian workers would experience under Russian rule. It would probably be no worse than what the people in Donbas or Crimea would experience under Ukrainian rule. Remember the horrendous acts that those Ukrainian Nazis did to those people in Odesa – set alight a building with many trapped inside. There are plenty of other examples.
The point is that war brutalises everyone who engages in it. From whatever angle you care to look at it the only rational sane and humane option is to end this barbaric war now and without further delay.
You beat me to it Robbo. But, oh dear, we have not been treated to such one-sided propaganda for one side in a war since we parted company with True Scotsman.
Incidentally, I don’t claim any originality for a flag being a rag at the end of a pole. It comes from Ambrose Bierce’s Devil’s Dictionary:
“FLAG, n. A colored rag borne above troops and hoisted on forts and ships.”
Here’s a couple more of his perspicacious observations:
“PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.
PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.
In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.”“BOUNDARY, n. In political geography, an imaginary line between two nations, separating the imaginary rights of one from the imaginary rights of the other.”
This is an informal warning, in my opinion you’re perilously close to trolling, violation of rule 7: “Do not use the forums to send […] purposely inflammatory remarks” and violation of rule 6:
“Do not make repeated postings of the same or similar messages to the same thread” – please either provide factual information or structured arguments, rather than postings of the ‘you guys suck’ type.More generally, just to echo Paula’s message upthread, rule 7 requires us all to be civil: attack ideas, not people, do not respond to provocation.
Remember, our moderators are part time, and there will be some delay until we can assess any given post.
Finally, for anyone other than moderators, moderation is axiomatically off-topic. Please do not send on forum posts about moderation. Do not reply to this message, I will nuke.
Once again, Robbo can’t comprehend why anybody would want to resist an invader who wants to subjugate them by surrendering their independence to an imperialist autocrat who will likely kill them if they resist. He can only believe that they fight over “a tacky piece of cloth on a flagpole somewhere” or what ALB calls “rags at the end of a pole”.
Very well said, pgb. You’ve certainly hit a nerve! But take good care. Any conceivable excuse will be used to censor (nuke – how disgusting, coming from a so-called ‘socialist’!) any opinion which is perceived to deviate from the ‘party’ line.
Elizabeth X
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/09/ooed-s09.html
Besides Ukrainian government losing thousands of soldiers, and many military equipments have been lost, billions of dollars have been stolen by Ukrainian ministers.
The Western government and the Russian government are eliminating bread and butters from the workers in order to finance weapons and wars
Those are the patriots who are going to run aways with their pockets full of maney, by the meantime thousands of human beings have died, and thousands have been forced to flee to others europeans countries, and have been forced to pay high amount of money to smugglers to be able to cross the borders.
We do not support any sides on this barbaric war, and we do not follow the illusory and reactionary conceptions of nationalism and patriotism, we only support workers on both sides of the conflict
Once again, Robbo can’t comprehend why anybody would want to resist an invader who wants to subjugate them by surrendering their independence to an imperialist autocrat who will likely kill them if they resist. He can only believe that they fight over “a tacky piece of cloth on a flagpole somewhere” or what ALB calls “rags at the end of a pole”.
Very well said, pgb
______________________________lizzie45
Would that be the “independence” of the wage slave in Ukraine from the imperialist autocratic regime of Putin or would it be the “independence” of the wage slave in Donbas who wants nothing to do with the imperialist autocratic regime of Zelinsky as he or she would probably see it and that has firing missiles on civilian populations since 2014?
The same death cult of nationalism that informs the “invaded” with their delusional fantasy of “independence” (“the workers have no country”) also informs the “invader” – and nationalist-minded liberals like you and PGB.
I still await an attempt by you or PGB to justify the continuation of the war from Ukraine´s standpoint when it’s pretty obvious that the counteroffensive has failed and that continuing the war means passing a needless death sentence on thousands more Ukrainian workers whose lives you pretend to be so concerned about
Whats the difference between the autocratic Zelensky regime and the autocratic Putin regime
https://www.cato.org/commentary/ukraines-accelerating-slide-authoritarianism
I’ve removed a post by @Lizzie45 for hinting at a user’s real name, after being asked not to. They are welcome to repost the content, or signal that they are happy for me to remove the offending phrase.
The term party line ( or general party line ) is a Leninist conception that is applicable to the vanguard party only which was defined by Lenin in What is to be done? and it has been widely used by Leninists and it was used by the Soviet Union, since the Socialist Party is not a vanguard party, the term party line is not applicable to us. The term is also used by right winger in order to discredit socialism indicating that the so called socialist countries are governed by dictatorship, therefore, the term is ambiguous, and it is wrong in both sides. We do have raised many critics against the vanguard party and the book what is to be done ? We have always supported Marx self liberation of the working class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_line_of_the_partyhttps://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-
standard/2000s/2002/no-1179-november-2002/what-we-should-not-do/PS Lenin himself said that it was only a temporary measure applicable to Russia and he was not planing to edit or publish the book again, but the stalinists and his followers turned it into an universal conception, as they did with the concept of soviets
https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/04/politics/donald-trump-vladimir-putin/index.html
Is he wrong ?
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/04/18/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-history-worldIs he wrong ?
Those are right wings pro capitalist presidents
If George Bush says that the Iraq war was for oil, would he be wrong ?
Mc Namara who promoted and supported the Vietnam war, at the end he said that it was wrong and it was a mistake
We do a lot of book reviews written by liberals, trotskyists, Maoists, Stalinists, social democrats, but we extract the best part of the books and then we add our own critiques of the books, that is what robbo did when he cited an article written by a libertarian, he took the main idea and applied it to a thread. Karl Marx studied a bourgeoisie economist known as David Ricardo for several years and he wrote Das Capital, socialism is a critical theory. We have had discussions with left-wingers and Nazis
In his latest spray (#246740), Robbo says that “the same death cult of nationalism that informs the ‘invaded’ (Ukraine) with their delusional fantasy of ‘independence’ (“the workers have no country”) also informs the ‘invader’ (Russia) – and nationalist minded liberals like (Lizzie45) and PGB”. Wow.
The “independence” I have referred to is the independence of Ukraine from Russia (and formerly the USSR) which was agreed to between Yeltsin and Kravchuk and overwhelmingly confirmed by Ukrainian workers in the referendum in 1991. This is the “independence” which Putin has tried to extinguish since February last year by replacing the Ukrainian government with a puppet government and incorporating Ukraine into a new pan-Russia. That’s what Ukrainian workers are fighting against. No “delusional fantasy” there. Robbo’s “workers have no country” trope carries an entirely different meaning, where “independence” means being freed from the rule of capital and state via international working class revolution, an heroic ideal but utterly unrealisable in current conditions in Ukraine or Russia or indeed anywhere else in the world. That’s the true “delusional fantasy” here.
Perhaps it’s of minor importance, but the “workers have no country” trope is not what Marx and Engels said. They said that the working class has no fatherland (Vaterland). They never said that the working class has no ‘country’ or ‘nation’. They believed that the working class had a material and, initially, a political stake, in their own national society (sic) if not in the state. They understood the role of nationality in shaping class-based movements, and that distinctive cultures, languages and ‘ways of life’ are embodied in nations and permeate all aspects of peoples lives. I was trying to get a similar idea across when I suggested that Ukrainian workers fighting against Putin’s army are defending their “common life” and that it is simplistic to see it only in terms of defending the state. Clearly, Robbo disagrees with this. A powerful antidote to Robbo’s simplicity is to read the best thing ever written on Marx and nationality IMO, in Erica Benner, “Really Existing Nationalisms” (Verso, 2012).
Robbo says that he is still waiting for me “to justify the continuation of the war from Ukraine’s standpoint when it’s pretty obvious that the counteroffensive has failed…” Lacking Robbo’s military expertise, I am unable to say that the Ukrainian counteroffensive has failed, and I’m in no position to satisfy his gratuitous demand that I justify the continuation of the war from Ukraine’s standpoint. I’ll let Ukrainians decide whether to continue their fight or not. I imagine that most of them believe that theirs is a just war and that many Ukrainian workers are willing to die for that. There may well come a time when the costs of continuing are too much and the war will reach a stalemate with a cease-fire more or less around the present front lines. Negotiations leading to an armistice seem like the best option to hope for, similar to the way the Korean war ended in 1953. At least it’s a realisable option, more so than anything Robbo has put up here.
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