More waffle from Peter Joseph…

July 2024 Forums General discussion More waffle from Peter Joseph…

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  • #90710
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    It should be borne in mind also that TZM does not have a membership as such as has already been pointed out but merely supporters with varying opinions; in other words no homogeneity of outlook.Take, for example, the views of the two representatives of TZM in the debate with the party at Hammersmith in July of this year. Franceso, their first speaker, argued that what was wrong with the present economic system was down to the need to pay interest to banks on money they had created, the money to pay which could only be found by borrowing more from the banks; so we were debt-slaves.  Although TZM does not advocate monetary reform to mitigate this, he personally was in favour of it as a transitional measure towards a money-free society.  (emphasis mine)Steve Duffield, their second speaker, said that TZM saw as its role the need to inform people of the situation, confident that they would see what the solution was. TZM was not a political party and did not advocate reformism or electoral action.  People could begin to change things now by changing their lifestyle to rely less on money and consumerism.  (emphasis mine)We may not see TZM "as enemies" but it is clear from just the two 'representative' statements above that there are a number of issues about which we are in fundamental disagreement.

    #90711
    Brian
    Participant

    It appears that Franceso and Steve are unaware of what's stated in TZM Mission Statement: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/mission-statement in reference to monetary reform.But its no surprise to me that both speakers are expressing a personal preference.  For the reality is that the Mission Statement is in fact the personal preference of Peter Joseph for it as never gone through the process of Rational Consensus supposedly adopted by the movement to determine policy.The Mission Statement was his reaction to the split with the Venus Project and like I said earlier is an example of their lack of structure and organisation.

    #90713
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

     The following is taken from the FAQ section found in the TZM site (link provided by Brian). Spot the similarities? 5 What are some of the central characteristics of the solution proposed (RBEM)?No Money or Market SystemAutomation of LaborTechnological Unification of Earth via "Systems" Approach.Access over Property.Self-Contained/Localized City and Production Systems.Science as the Methodology for Governance  If the speakers earlier referred to from TZM UK are advocating monetary reforms as a solution then they are at odds with the movement goals, (Perhaps as socialists the radical aims of TZM are easy for us to grasp).

    #90714
    ALB
    Keymaster
    SocialistPunk wrote:
    If the speakers earlier referred to from TZM UK are advocating monetary reforms as a solution then they are at odds with the movement goals

    In the ZM Mission Statement that Brian referred to it says:

    Quote:
    The range of The Movement's Activism & Awareness Campaigns extend from short to long term, with the model based explicitly on Non-Violent methods of communication. The long term view, which is the transition into a Resource-Based Economic Model, is a constant pursuit and expression, as stated before. However, in the path to get there, The Movement also recognizes the need for transitional Reform techniques, along with direct Community Support. For instance, while "Monetary Reform" itself is not an end solution proposed by The Movement, the merit of such legislative approaches are still considered valid in the context of transition and temporal integrity.

    In other words, officially they see "Monetary Reform" (incidentally, without defining exactly what) as a transition to a money-free society.We have been plugging away amongst ZM members in London to show that seeing monetary reform as a step towards getting rid of money altogether is illogical and inconsistent. This leaflet suggests we may have made some headway. It says (on the back);

    Quote:
    Even if reformed, the Monetary System is incapable of becoming the tool to build the kind of egalitarian emancipated societies we need in order to thrive. Why? Because going back to the gold standard, outlawing interest, letting governments distribute money debt free and such like, have logical merits, but the Monetary System, in whatever form, still maintains resource and equality imbalances and holds back our progress, while creating by its fundamental design, poverty and scarcity of basic needs. This is the underlying problem that needs to be solved.

    This is  the same point (minus the concession that the monetary reforms listed "have logical merits", which they don't) that we've been making in the discussions at the Occupy New Putney Debates. In this respect ZM is ahead of Occupy.Incidentally, I can't believe that Peter Joseph wrote that wordy and jargon-filled Mission Statement since he is normally a good communicator. Anyway, here's a much better ZM statement (and much nearer to what we say):http://www.zeitgeistminneapolis.com/RBE

    #90712
    Brian
    Participant

    Hi Adam,I can confirm that Peter Joseph is the author of the Mission Statement, however the draft was then passed to the coordinator of the Linguistic Team and the Danish coordinator for proofreading, and I suspect that's where the jargon like "temporal integrity" crept in.I assume that the leaflet you mentioned was produced by the London Chapter?  If this is the case they can expect to eventually come under scrutiny from the Global Admin Team who are currently carrying out a purge on those Chapters failing to follow the Mission Statement and the procedures and processes laid down by that team.In reference to the statement by the Minneapolis Chapter this needs to be passed to the comrades in the US and Canada so they can make contact with them.

    #90715
    Brian
    Participant

    Hi Adam,Just checked the link to the Minneapolis Chapter web site and it appears that their Mission Statement is the one by Peter Joseph.  Luckily I had saved their old one: Resource-Based EconomyAll social systems, regardless of political philosophy, religious beliefs, or social customs, ultimately depend upon natural resources, i.e. clean air and water, arable land and the necessary technology and personnel to maintain a high standard of living.Simply stated, a resource-based economy utilizes existing resources rather than money and provides an equitable method of distributing these resources in the most efficient manner for the entire population. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival. Modern society has access to highly advanced technologies and can make available food, clothing, housing, medical care, a relevant educational system, and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy such as geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, etc. It is now possible to have everyone enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities that a prosperous civilization can provide. This can be accomplished through the intelligent and humane application of science and technology.To better understand the meaning of a resource-based economy consider this: if all the money in the world were destroyed, as long as topsoil, factories, and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we choose to build and fulfill any human need. It is not money that people need; rather, it is free access to the necessities of life. In a resource-based economy , money would be irrelevant. All that would be required are the resources and the manufacturing and distribution of the products.When education and resources are made available to all people without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential. Although this is difficult to imagine, even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in a resource based society as proposed by The Venus Project. Today the middle classes live better than kings of times past. In a resource based economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today.In such a society, the measure of success would be based on the fulfillment of one's individual pursuits rather than the acquisition of wealth, property and power.The Choice Is Ours To MakeHuman behavior is subject to the same laws as any other natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are byproducts of our culture. No one is born with greed, prejudice, bigotry, patriotism and hatred; these are all learned behavior patterns. If the environment is unaltered, similar behavior will reoccur.Today, much of the technology needed to bring about a global Resource-Based Economy exists. If we choose to conform to the limitations of our present monetary-based economy, then it is likely that we will continue to live with its inevitable results: war, poverty, hunger, deprivation, crime, ignorance, stress, fear, and inequity. On the other hand, if we embrace the concept of a global resource-based economy , learn more about it, and share our understanding with our friends, this will help humanity evolve out of its present state.

    #90716
    Brian
    Participant

    However I just spotted this blooper:"When education and resources are made available to all people without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential. Although this is difficult to imagine, even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in a resource based society as proposed by The Venus Project. Today the middle classes live better than kings of times past. In a resource based economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today."Which appears to say a levelling up would occur.

    #90717
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    Hi ALB,I was well aware of the reference TZM have in their mission statement about transitional reform techniques.The key word in my bit is "solution", perhaps I should have said ultimate end solution or something similar.But I have the same concerns about TZM that most others here have. Their reference to the use of reforms to somehow, (unspecified) achieve what they refer to as a global resource based economy. We all know if unchecked those reform techniques can quickly become end goals in themselves. And that would be at odds with the end goal of the movement.The following comes from the FAQ number 4 How does TZM view the solutions to our major social problems today?http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq4It appears that most solutions offered in the world today are framed within the current social order and its practices.For example, there are over 1 billion people starving in the world and the most common solutions sought tend to utilize money in some fashion to enable the resources needed.TZM takes a very different view. Rather than take each problem on a per case basis and work to solve that problem within the confines of the custom accepted system – a system that might, in fact, be creating the problem itself – TZM steps back to consider the inherent logic of the issues themselves and how they relate to the emerging Scientific Benchmark (with respect to The Scientific Method), absent respect for social tradition and custom.In the case of 1 Billion people starving, the solution does not rest with the need for more donations, more governmental subsides or even legislation to limit possible causal abuse and exploitation of such regions (as those are not direct solutions since they do not relate to the mechanics of survival). Rather they relate and intermediate with current social customs. It is easy to pick and choose quotes as I am doing, but my point is TZM are offering a solution so similar to ours, that ultimately goes way beyond reform.I would like to extend an invitation to TZM  members to join us on this forum to discuss ideas.

    #90718
    ALB
    Keymaster
    Brian wrote:
    Just checked the link to the Minneapolis Chapter web site and it appears that their Mission Statement is the one by Peter Joseph.  Luckily I had saved their old one:

    Actually, they are both there. The good one which you reproduced is under About/Resource Based Economy here:http://www.zeitgeistminneapolis.com/RBE

    #90719
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    Hi Brian,I agree, it is an odd statement for TZM to make: "In a resource based economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today." Perhaps the key is in the reference to "human potential" ? Or if you think about it, what capitalism does to our environment, in causing so much toxic pollution  and potential climate change, todays wealthy would, even if they did not realise it, be better off.But without stating that, it does seem as you say, to imply a leveling up of wealth or access to the equivalent of todays luxuries etc.

    #90720
    Brian
    Participant
    SocialistPunk wrote:
     It is easy to pick and choose quotes as I am doing, but my point is TZM are offering a solution so similar to ours, that ultimately goes way beyond reform.I would like to extend an invitation to TZM  members to join us on this forum to discuss ideas.

    That has already been done, with unfortunately not much effect.  Why not do what I do and attend the TZM UK Chapter meetings on Team Speak 3.  The next one is on the 22nd of Nov.  Paddy gave a talk at the last one which was very well received with an invitation extended for a further one.Just purchase a cheap headset from your nearest discount store then follow the voice chat link on the UK web site.

    #90721
    Brian
    Participant
    ALB wrote:
    Brian wrote:
    Just checked the link to the Minneapolis Chapter web site and it appears that their Mission Statement is the one by Peter Joseph.  Luckily I had saved their old one:

    Actually, they are both there. The good one which you reproduced is under About/Resource Based Economy here:http://www.zeitgeistminneapolis.com/RBE

    Which says to me that the purge – I mentioned earlier – has already taken place in the US with a compromise being reached, on Chapter autonomy and integrity, by allowing the Minneapolis Chapter to retain their 'Mission Statement' under the FAQ box.

    #90722
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    Hi Brian,I think I'll give the TZM Team Speak 3 a go on the 22nd.Could you give us a brief of what to expect when on there? I notice it says Chapter meetings, does this mean we end up on a regional chat room or one big chat room? And is it a case of listening to verbal minutes etc with a brief chance to chat?Any info' would be welcome.Cheers.

    #90723
    Brian
    Participant

    If you would like me to give you a run down on what to expect on TS 3 I'm available most evenings to take you through the process.  Just say when and I'll meet you there.

    #90724
    ALB
    Keymaster
    SocialistPunk wrote:
    I think I'll give the TZM Team Speak 3 a go on the 22nd.

    You realise that they can't understand a North East English accent in America, don't you? Look what happened to Cheryl Cole. But good luck all the same.

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