Left Unity.org / People’s Assembly

February 2024 Forums General discussion Left Unity.org / People’s Assembly

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 584 total)
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  • #92983
    stuartw2112
    Participant

    As Bill said, I was "late of this parish", and I still pop in ocassionally to see if the village shop is still open. Nice to see it is and that the same old boys hang around outside on the green, chewing the fat.Gnome says I am a master of transformation – why, thank you very much, it's kind of you to say so! But Ed is wrong to imply that I've changed my mind about all that much. Back in 1999 when I joined your party, I signed up to the belief that socialism was about the emancipation of the working class, and that the work of this emancipation "must be the work of the working class itself". I still believe that, and is why I was an enthusiastic supporter of Occupy, and now of Left Unity. Adam says it will end in tears. Most people in Left Unity expect it to. But we do the work anyway and leave the results to 'god', as Ghandi put it.It has been an interesting experience in Left Unity so far, getting up close to the organised far-left sects again. I hadn't noticed before (another transformation!) just how exactly like you lot they are. Of course, you're nicer, and more democratic. But the basic assumptions about the "tasks of Maxists" are the same; the dreary speeches, unchanged for a century, sound the same. Not that it matters: people generally have the good sense to ignore them. As does the majority in Left Unity. In that, at least, there's hope!All the bestStuart

    #92984

    Stuart,when I saw some of the comments, my thought was that you haven't changed, but you've just changed club, and while some of us want to keep on trying with the same old 5-Iron, you prefer to experiment with the odd sand-wedge. That seems fair enough to me.

    #92985
    stuartw2112
    Participant

    Ha ha, maybe you're right. Thanks Bill

    #92986
    Ed
    Participant
    stuartw2112 wrote:
    Gnome says I am a master of transformation – why, thank you very much, it's kind of you to say so! But Ed is wrong to imply that I've changed my mind about all that much. Back in 1999 when I joined your party, I signed up to the belief that socialism was about the emancipation of the working class, and that the work of this emancipation "must be the work of the working class itself". I still believe that, and is why I was an enthusiastic supporter of Occupy, and now of Left Unity. Adam says it will end in tears. Most people in Left Unity expect it to. But we do the work anyway and leave the results to 'god', as Ghandi put it.

    Hi Stuart we've never met, I believe I started attending meetings shortly after you left, so it was probably wrong of me to have made assumptions about a change in your views. But could you elucidate on the sentence I quoted "The only alternative to the chaos of capitalism is a planned economy". It did strike me that you may not have meant this in it's common usage. But if not then could you explain in what way you think a system of exploitation and servitude to the state is different from capitalism?To borrow YMS's metaphor I'd say it's more like using a tennis racket than merely a different club.

    #92987
    ALB
    Keymaster
    stuartw2112 wrote:
    But we do the work anyway and leave the results to 'god', as Ghandi put it.

    I think Napoleon put it better when he said "You commit yourself and then you see" ( "On s'engage et puis on voit"). Lenin liked it too. But look what happened to them. Anyway, I wonder which particular god Gandhi had in mind.

    #92988
    stuartw2112
    Participant

    Ed: it's a commonplace of socialist thought (you'll find it in Marx and Engels) that the alternative to the anarchy of the market is a planned economy, ie, socialism.Adam: Oh, I don't know. Zeus?

    #92989
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    stuartw2112 wrote:
     Back in 1999 when I joined your party, I signed up to the belief that socialism was about the emancipation of the working class, and that the work of this emancipation "must be the work of the working class itself". I still believe that, and is why I was an enthusiastic supporter of Occupy, and now of Left Unity. Adam says it will end in tears. Most people in Left Unity expect it to.

    So what then?  Will you again apply to join the SPGB for a third (or is it fourth) time and repeat the cycle all over?

    Quote:
    Of course, you're nicer, and more democratic.

    And, most importantly, stand for socialism.

    #92990
    stuartw2112
    Participant

    "So what then?  Will you again apply to join the SPGB for a third (or is it fourth) time and repeat the cycle all over?"Twice bitten, thrice dangerously allergic."And, most importantly, stand for socialism."Lie down for it more like.Cheerio, I'm off to transform again.

    #92991
    Ed
    Participant
    stuartw2112 wrote:
    Ed: it's a commonplace of socialist thought (you'll find it in Marx and Engels) that the alternative to the anarchy of the market is a planned economy, ie, socialism.

    It actually really isn't either a commonplace Socialist thought or to be found anywhere in Marx or Engels writing. At least not according to Marxist Internet Achieve. A planned economy is synonymous with central planning as in the Soviet Union, PRC, 3rd International, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung central planning. If this is the first time you've heard that, then just take it as comradely advice to steer clear of that phrase in future. Free access or even gift economy might be better if that is your intended meaning. As it is upon reading the article you sound like a Marxist-Leninist.

    #92992
    stuartw2112
    Participant

    Ed:Have a look at Engels' Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. Or Marx's Capital. Both talk, there and elsewhere, about the anarchy of the market giving way to a planned society, ie, socialism. As I said, and as is entirely uncontroversial, it is a commonplace of socialist thought that socialism will be a planned society. "Gift economy", on the other hand, is not really the same thing as socialism, at least, not as conceived in the Marxist tradition.

    #92993
    ALB
    Keymaster
    stuartw2112 wrote:
    Adam: Oh, I don't know. Zeus?

    In that case the appropriate phrase would be "it's in the lap of the gods" as Homer put it.

    #92995
    Ed
    Participant
    stuartw2112 wrote:
    Ed:Have a look at Engels' Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. Or Marx's Capital. Both talk, there and elsewhere, about the anarchy of the market giving way to a planned society, ie, socialism. As I said, and as is entirely uncontroversial, it is a commonplace of socialist thought that socialism will be a planned society. "Gift economy", on the other hand, is not really the same thing as socialism, at least, not as conceived in the Marxist tradition.

    Actually I'd say it's a hugely controversial thought among Marxists because what you are indeed acknowledging by saying that it is not socialism is that it is capitalism. And really that is what Left unity is about friendly capitalism. An impossible dream.

    #92994
    Ed
    Participant

    A search of MIAIt brings up two results which are both study guides.planned economynoun an economic system in which the government controls and regulates production, distribution, prices, etc. Compare free enterprise. Origin: 1930–35  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/planned+economy Planned economies are usually categorized as a particular variant of socialism, and have historically been supported by and implemented by Marxist-Leninist socialist states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy

    #92996
    stuartw2112
    Participant

    Adam: better quote from Homer. He looks up to sky and says, 'I've never asked for your help before and I don't know if you even exist. But if you do exist, please, Superman, save me now'. A different Homer though. Ed: read Engels and you'll see I'm right. cheers 

    #92997
    Ed
    Participant
    stuartw2112 wrote:
    Ed: read Engels and you'll see I'm right. cheers 

    I've read Engels thanks especially Socialism: Scientific and Utopian and cannot recall coming across the phrase. As it is your phrase and as I have provided evidence to substantiate my assertion the onus is on you to provide some evidence to back up your assertion. Surely it can't be difficult; you said it was used alot, right?

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