Hong Kong
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TS writes,” Those victims could not have been killed by the Soviets. It was impossible.”
And what does Grover Furr say”
“If the Soviets “did it”, I’d like to know. Frankly, I have my doubts. But it’s far from impossible, too. Maybe they did? Likewise, if the Germans “did it”, I’d also like to know. Maybe they did?” [my emphasis]
But since you have already indicated that you believe confessions
“…The head of the Board of the District NKVD in Kalinin, Major Dmitry Stepanovich Tokarev, recalled years later: “It was already on the first day. So we went. And then I saw all this horror. We came there. After a few minutes Blokhin [one of the NKVD officers who came from Moscow] put on his special clothing: a brown leather cap, a long leather brown apron, leather brown gloves with cuffs above the elbows. It made a huge impression on me – I saw the executioner! The charges were not read to the convicts. After being dragged to the cell, the victim was immediately killed by a shot in the back of the head…”
TS “Almost all the victims were killed using German ammunition.”
That is indeed irrefutable. The research on their markings indicated that they had been produced in the interwar period; at that time, the USSR had imported a lot of weapons and ammunition from Germany in the framework of military cooperation between both countries. Some of the murdered prisoners of war were additionally finished off with bayonets that were quadrangular, like the ones used by the Soviets, and not flat like a knife, used by German soldiers.
NKVD chief Vasily Blokhin had brought a briefcase full of his own Walther pistols, since he did not trust the reliability of the standard-issue Soviet TT-30 for the frequent, heavy use he intended. Another reason he used the Walther rather than his standard issue Tokarev was the blow back. The Walther’s lower recoil made it easier for him (as well as other executioners for the NKVD) to kill large numbers of people in one night. Walthers were readily available due to the cooperation between the Soviets and Nazi’s in which the Germans ended up giving a fair amount of arms to their Soviet Allies.“And what does Grover Furr say”
“If the Soviets “did it”, I’d like to know. Frankly, I have my doubts. But it’s far from impossible, too.”
You’ve taken the quote out of context. He has proved absolutely that victims that were claimed to be those of the Soviets could not have been.
In 2011 and 2012 a joint Polish-Ukrainian archeological team partially excavated a mass
execution site at the town of Volodymyr-Volyns‘kiy, Ukraine. Shell cases found in the burial pit
prove that the executions there took place no earlier than 1941. In the burial pit were found the
badges of two Polish policemen previously thought to have been murdered hundreds of miles
away by the Soviets in April-May 1940. These discoveries cast serious doubt on the canonical,
or ―official,‖ version of the events known to history as the Katyn Massacre.”Professor Furr does not claim there were no executions of Polish officers by the Soviets. Some Polish officers responsible for atrocities against Soviet citizens were indeed executed.
““…The head of the Board of the District NKVD in Kalinin, Major Dmitry Stepanovich Tokarev, recalled years later: “I
“In 1990, 1991, and 1992 three aged former NKVD men were identified and interviewed.
They discussed what they knew of executions of Poles in April and May of 1940. None of these
executions had taken place at the Katyn Forest, site of the German exhumations.”“Russia’s state archive has published formerly top secret Soviet-era documents on the April 1940 Katyn massacre on its website….
“The first page of the letter bears the word Za – “in favour” – scrawled in blue pencil with the signatures of then Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and of Politburo members K. Voroshilov and A. Mikoyan, along with V. Molotov in ordinary pencil. In the margin are the names Kalinin and Kaganovich – also aides to Stalin – added in blue ink, and also with the word za.”
Now, irrespective of whether the actual massacre on the ground occurred, unless this is a forgery from within the Russians state archive, then Stalin authorised some 14K+ executions.
There are documents that seem to corroborate this document, so i think forgery is unlikely.
‘So no answers to those very simple questions then? Come on, humor me? Or am I to presume you are that naive that you believe there will be no capitalist counter-reaction?’
It’s just as if the Left have never read any Marx at all and are still stuck with the bourgeois consciousness of the 18th century!
For the zillionth time here’s what Marx said in the Manifesto: “All previous historical movements were movements of minorities or in the interest of minorities. The proletarian movement is the self-conscious, independent movement of the immense majority, in the interest of the immense majority.”Who will pose a threat after the revolution? A few fat bourgeois with weapons they don’t know how to use? Laughable. The armed services will be of no use to them as they, as members of the working class, will be part of the movement. It will be like the demise of your beloved ‘Soviet Union’ without a shot being fired by those loyal to the old regime.
The badges were found not on the corpses but in the bulk layer with rubbish (household items etc.) above the corpses. The archival research showed that at least one of the policemen was detained in Volodymyr Volynski for weeks in 1939. This means that his badge (and probably that of the other policeman, about whom less is known) was taken from him then, and when the Germans overtook the prison they eventually disposed of the useless inmates’ belongings (still kept in the prison) in the burial area
Let a real historian go into detail with the explanation of the supposed anomaly with the badges
“…Russian historian Aleksandr Guryanov has solved the “riddle” in his thorough study Ubity v Kalinine, zakhoroneny v Mednom, 2019, vol. 1, pp. 79-81 (the references are omitted, see the original text):
The camp fate of one of them – Ludwik Małowiejski – could be traced back using archival documents of the NKVD from the moment of his capture, which made it possible to explain the discovery made in 2011 during the exhumation of mass graves of 1940-1941 by Polish and Ukrainian archaeologists on the territory of the former prison in Volodymyr-Volynskyi, Volyn region of Ukraine. During the excavations in the bulk “rubbish” layer (containing various damaged household items) above the grave pit with human remains (most likely people shot by the Nazis), a police registration plate number 1099/II belonging to Ludwik Małowiejski from Lodz was found. A year earlier, Ukrainian archeologists had also found a service registration plate with number 1441/II belonging to another prisoner of the Ostashkovsky camp, the Łódź policeman Józef Kuligowski (the Roman numeral II in both service plates means the prewar Łódź district of the State Police). After the report of these findings, Russian publications appeared, where the discovery of police registration plates during the excavations of mass graves in Volodymyr-Volynskyi was considered as evidence that Józef Kuligowski and Ludwik Małowiejski were buried there, and therefore they were shot in 1941. This statement was interpreted as one of the facts proving that there were no “shot Poles” in Mednoye at all (without any justification for the acceptability) of such an extensive extrapolation. The fact that official police signs during the exhumations in Vladimir-Volynsky were found not among human remains, but in the bulk layer above the graves, was ignored in these publications.
Meanwhile, according to documentary data of the UPV, Ludwik Małowiejski was indeed in Volodymyr-Volynskyi, but not in 1941, but in 1939. In the NKVD files of prisoners of war of 1939-1941, stored in the RGVA, his archival record card, filled in Shepetovka on February 7, 1940, which contains records of his capture on September 19, 1939 in Volodymyr-Volynskyi and his arrival on October 14, 1939 in Shepetovka reception center of the NKVD for prisoners of war……Information about his capture in September 1939 in Volodymyr-Volynskyi and his transfer from there to the NKVD Shepetovka reception center for prisoners of war is recorded in the NKVD archive documents for some other prisoners of the Ostashkov camp. It should be noted that in the course of archaeological excavations of mass graves near the former prison in Volodymyr-Volynskyi, other Polish police registration plates were found, in particular, with numbers 639/XII (Pomeranian region), 1154/III and 2202/III (both in Kielce region), but the names of their owners have not been established (it is possible that these policemen were captured in Volodymyr-Volynskyi and then got into the Ostashkov camp). Ludwik Małowiejski’s record card shows that after his captivity he was kept in custody in Volodymyr-Volynskyi for at least three weeks. We can assume that in prison his service badge was taken away from him and then not returned when he was sent from Volodymyr-Volynskyi to Shepetovka, and the badge remained in prison, and after the Germans occupied the prison it was thrown away by them together with other unnecessary items (damaged kitchenware) and got into a bulk layer on top of the mass grave of the shot. Since Ludwik Małowiejski was captured wounded in September 1939, after his arrival at the NKVD Shepetovka reception centre he was placed in a hospital in Shepetovka, where he was kept until he was sent to the Ostashkov camp. Documentary data on the date and place of the capture of Józef Kuligowski, as well as on where he was held as a prisoner of war until his arrival at the Ostashkov camp, are not available in the researched archive documents, but we can assume that he, like many other Polish soldiers and police, in September 1939, was captured in Volodymyr-Volynskyi and his police registration plate probably ended up in the bulk layer above the mass grave in Volodymyr-Volynskyi in the same way as the sign of Ludwik Małowiejski. It is very likely that Józef Kuligowski, like Ludwik Małowiejski, was transferred from Volodymyr-Volynskyi to the NKVD Shepetovka reception center, but did not go to the hospital, and was sent with one of the two groups that arrived in the Ostashkov camp in November 1939…”
And because many of the executions takes place in nearby camps and not literally on the site of Katyn forest where the corpses were dumped is a distraction. It is a not so clever dodge used by the Holocaust Deniers…”of course many Jews died in the camps but it was from disease, not the gas chamber, and the bodies had to be incinerated for health reasons”
And before you accuse me of accusing you of being a holocaust denier, I am saying you use the similar logic as them.
And once more you cite Furr that the NKVD did not execute children so easy to check with Google
Dubno: All the prisoners in Dubno’s three-story prison, including women and children, were executed.
Ivano-Frankivsk: Over 500 Polish prisoners (including 150 women with dozens of children) were shot by the NKVD and buried in several mass graves at Dem’ianiv Laz.But alas that is a wiki entry and will not satisfy you that kids were murdered by the NKVD.
The left has not never gone beyond the Communist Manifesto which is also a reformist document and contain certain state capitalist clauses
As I had said it several times there are many historians who have debunked the myth and the history of the Soviet Union and its leaders, but Furr is not a debunker of its history he is just a justifier of all the even that took n place since 1917 and specially Stalin, he is not a reliable source, it would be like taking Trotsky My Life as a reliable source, most autobiography are not reliable
MS, I have studied the assassination of JFK extensively and it is very easy to take a few supposed discrepancies and produce a conspiracy and ignore all the other relevant data that contradicts the basis of that conspiracy.
The Nazis “did it” school of thought have never actually explained why a construction battalion is said to have carried out the massacre and not the Einsatzgruppen units, dedicated to such a duty.
What is Furr’s purpose? I don’t believe it is mercenary for the sales of books. It is ideological. He was a member of an M-L sect.
As YMS suggested, Furr inadvertently promotes the anti-Bolshevik case. If the 5-Year-Plans were such a success, why are saboteurs in high positions required to explain when they failed to achieve their targets?
What TS forgets is that most of the mainstream media accepted the Party-line that the Moscow trials were fair and that the confessions were extracted without torture. He can disregard the testimony of countless gulag inmates who said differently. He forgot that when the Katyn forest massacre was revealed most governments for political reasons accepted the Soviet version of it. Stalin at the time was still “Uncle Joe”. Furr in the historical context is no heretical historian but a purveyor of previous conventional analysis that has now been discarded and rejected.
I have not read his work on the Great Famine (I haven’t studied the topic, at all), but perhaps that is better researched and have some credibility.
Alan
There is a Maoist in the Internet which is doing the same job as Furr and he is a great defender o Stalin and Mao, and covers up the Great Famine of the Soviet Union, his argument is that the Kulacs produced the famine in the Soviet Union
https://www.marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1942/russian-economy/ch01.htm
This is a study of the 5 years plans made by Raya Dunayeskaya, her conclusion was that Russia was still a backward country and that all 5 years plans were capitalist production planning subject to capitalist crisis
MS, I have studied the assassination of JFK
extensively and it is very easy to take a few
supposed discrepancies and produce a conspiracy
and ignore all the other relevant data that
contradicts the basis of that conspiracy.There are hundred of conspiracy theory on JFK and most of them are false
What TS forgets is that most of the mainstream
media accepted the Party-line that the Moscow
trials were fair and that the confessions were
extracted without torture. He can disregard the
testimony of countless gulag inmates who said
differently. He forgot that when the Katyn forest
massacre was revealed most governments for
political reasons accepted the Soviet version of
it. Stalin at the time was still “Uncle Joe”. Furr
in the historical context is no heretical
historian but a purveyor of previous conventional
analysis that has now been discarded and rejected.————————————————
As I wrote before, at the United States Post Offices there were pictures of Stalin and Roosevelt and signs which said: This is our ally and also Richard Wolff confirmed what I said, and they forgot everything about Stalin crimes and the Gulaps and they accepted the version of the Soviet Union. The confessions of the prisoners is the same case of the prisoners of Guantanamo
“Who will pose a threat after the revolution?”
So in your utopian fantasies you imagine that the entire world will erupt into socialist revolution at exactly the same time? Without leaders, because…Engles?
“A few fat bourgeois with weapons they don’t know how to use? Laughable. The armed services will be of no use to them as they, as members of the working class”
Soldiers are some of the most reactionary people on the planet. Mussolini’s black shirts were all former soldiers as were Hitler’s brown shirts. The contras, who nailed babies to kitchen tables and executed nurses and teaches, were all ex soldiers. ISIS were largely former Iraqi soldiers. These people will kill you unless you kill them first. But…you’re just going to imagine the bullets they’re shooting at you don’t exist because…Marx? Seriously? Is this view shared by your entire “party”? It’s the most bonkers thing I’ve ever heard! I’d say you have rocks in your head but it’s more like the Rocky mountains. My God, you people…Lol
“It will be like the demise of your beloved ‘Soviet Union’”
The Soviet Union was dissolved by counter-revolutionaries. You do know that, right? It was catastrophic for almost every member state. Gangster capitalists looted the nations’ wealth. The standard of living plummeted and hasn’t returned to the same levels since in most former Soviet republics.
“without a shot being fired by those loyal to the old regime.”
Boris Yeltsin killed around 150 when he bombed parliament, the immiseration of former Soviet states and Russia in particular killed hundreds of thousands. You really don’t know your history do you?
‘Soldiers are some of the most reactionary people on the planet.’
‘It’s the most bonkers thing I’ve ever heard!’
These remarks just emphasize once again your lack of Socialist consciousness. Unfortunately you’ll never be able to understand socialism since you are one of the reactionaries of which you speak. Without mass consciousness (including the armed forces – who are just ordinary members of the working class like the rest of us) there can be no socialism. The reason your beloved Soviet Union fell was because Russians didn’t believe the propaganda any more and did not wish to defend it. I only debate with you to show comrades just how mistaken some of them are to believe the Left are more liable to become socialists – like you they believe socialism to be ‘ the most bonkers thing they’ve ever heard.’ Having made this point several times I now close discourse with this individual.
“Having made this point several times I now close discourse with this individual.”
What discourse? There wasn’t any. I heard you talking about rainbow unicorns and marshmallow waterfalls but nothing reality based. You can’t wish away counter-revolutionary violence because…??? Alan, is this your view also? Are you as airy-fairy as comrade Wez?
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