September 13, 2013 at 7:02 pm #82333
Being pro equality I want everyone who is doing their role in society to be equal, but I am going to be honest, I don't fully know what the SPGB's stance is on gender. I know they want equality for humans regardless of gender which is great, however I feel that equality means men and women dressing the same. Why is it when women wear make up people accept it but when men wear make up people don't? Men are just as entitled to wear make up as what women are, and it is very annoying how people pick on men who wear make up shouting insults such as "gay". Men should protest against this and spend a day covering themselves in make up to show that gender doesn't mean anything, we are all equal!September 13, 2013 at 8:25 pm #96524ALBKeymaster
Why not take it a stage further:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/10305258/Arise-Sir-Baldrick-Tony-Robinson-knighted-in-Queens-Birthday-Honours-CBE-for-Blackadder-Rowan-Atkinson.htmlAnyway, looking forward to seeing you at the meeting on Sunday.September 14, 2013 at 6:03 am #96525alanjjohnstoneKeymaster
I'm afraid the cosmetic industry has beaten you to it , Alex. They have been promoting and advertising male make-up for years and its succeeding if you care to look at the men's section. Gone are the days of only after-shave and spray deodorants…a lot of skin lotions and hair treatments now, lip glosses too, disguised as outdoor protection salves.Nor should we forget Beckham's skirt wearing fashion attempt a few years back. When working outdoors in Winter many of us wore women's tights under our overalls.September 14, 2013 at 8:56 am #96526AnonymousInactiveALB wrote:Anyway, looking forward to seeing you at the meeting on Sunday.September 14, 2013 at 9:32 am #96527
I wouldn't say gender doesn't matter but I get what you are saying. As you quite rightly point out it does have major implications on how we behave and interact. It should be recognised that gender is a social construct not based on biological differences. Sex is the term for the biological differences between males and females, while gender is merely an unspoken list of rules on how each sex should behave differently in a social context. We call these unwritten rules masculinity and femininity. I recommend this talk by Cordelia Fine, which is a great debunking of the myth of biological differences between males and females http://fora.tv/2010/10/02/Cordelia_Fine_Delusions_of_GenderI've got to disagree with Alan, I think that things may be getting worse in terms of how society currently sees gender roles. What is it to be a man in today's society?You gotta be hard, you gotta be tough, you have to get respect, you can't let anyone be seen to take advantage of you, you have to be dominant over women, you have to have lots of sexual conquests, you have to be dominant over other men, etc, etc. If you are not you are gay or a faggot or weak or soft. One way to do this, to show this effectively, is to have lots of money, but for the vast majority of men who don't have that luxury they have their bodies, they have their appearance, their language and their demeanor in which to create the desired image. This has become amplified because of the fact that working men have a lack of control over their lives, they lack power and authority, yet more things which are related to being a "real man". This is why we often see expressions of hyper-masculinity in the poorest communities. The reason this is a problem and an issue for us as socialists is that the behaviour associated with masculinity is inherently anti-social and if we're looking to create a social[ist] society it is an issue that needs to be addressed. Furthermore it is (imo) a prime example of alienation of workers from other workers, set in competition with eachother and also from the means of production as explained by Marx in Estranged Labour. Making it inherently a class issue.Alex, in case you haven't got around to this one yet Origins of the Family by Engels is a good starting point on issues of gender roles. And of course this fantastic talk from Steve at summer school.http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/audio/family-class-society-engels-anti-oedipusSeptember 14, 2013 at 9:37 am #96528ALB wrote:Why not take it a stage further:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/10305258/Arise-Sir-Baldrick-Tony-Robinson-knighted-in-Queens-Birthday-Honours-CBE-for-Blackadder-Rowan-Atkinson.htmlAnyway, looking forward to seeing you at the meeting on Sunday.
There may be something in that you know ALBhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPAat-T1uhEYou're never too old to start you know give it a try this Sunday.September 14, 2013 at 9:49 am #96529ALBKeymasterEd wrote:You're never too old to start you know give it a try this Sunday.
Meet you up the road here after the meeting.September 14, 2013 at 8:15 pm #96530
Yeah Ed and ALB there is huge gender problems at the moment in society. Being a male growing up through the school system just shows that. Teenage males trying to act big and hard, talk about nothing but fights, and unfortunately many teenage boys nowadays are dangerous and freedom of speech goes out of the window if you talk to these sorts of people because one word can mean suffering a nasty injury. I am going to be honest, men and women are both oppressed. Just referring to people as men and women is oppressive, we are HUMANS! Then there are these stupid forms that sometimes we have to fill in saying please state gender, race, nationality etc. All a load of rubbish. We are all human, not black, white, male, female, english, immigrant.September 15, 2013 at 7:45 am #96531
Then again people who want to be tough physically are people who i feel really sorry for. Even though none of us like the capitalism system we, the SPGB, have one another, whereas these people who want to toughen up are really isolated.September 15, 2013 at 12:01 pm #96532rodshawParticipantAlex Woodrow wrote:Just referring to people as men and women is oppressive, we are HUMANS!
Out of interest, does anyone know of any societies whose language doesn't differentiate between the sexes? No 'he', 'she', etc?September 15, 2013 at 4:56 pm #96533rodshaw wrote:Out of interest, does anyone know of any societies whose language doesn't differentiate between the sexes? No 'he', 'she', etc?
Not that I know of I think it's a pretty standard thing to have a word which differentiates between who carries the babies. The first division of labour was also along sex lines so makes sense to have a two different words. Although the concept of gender has changed radically and is radically different in different parts of the world.We do have some linguists about and certainly people better read on anthropology than me so I too will be interested to see if they can come up with anything.September 15, 2013 at 6:14 pm #96534J SurmanParticipantrodshaw wrote:Out of interest, does anyone know of any societies whose language doesn't differentiate between the sexes? No 'he', 'she', etc?
In Turkish 'he', 'she', 'it' are all 'o'. There are words for man, woman, etc. Sister is literally translated 'girl brother' and then there are specific words for family members to denote whether they're on the mother's or father's side – easy to identify whether an aunt / uncle is from the father's/mother's side. And so on – – –November 5, 2013 at 3:29 pm #96535stevead1966Participant
I think Alex would be interested in David Fernbach's 1981 book 'The Spiral Path' which sees the only truly radical gender politics is that which works towards the ultimate destruction and elimination of gender.
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