Facism Is coming to USA…

December 2025 Forums General discussion Facism Is coming to USA…

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 68 total)
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  • #261199
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    I wrote this some years ago to challenge a conspiraloon who claimed we were no different and likewise followed an ideology:

    IDEOLOGY VS PHILOSOPHY.

    The difference between brainwashing and thought is the difference between ideology and philosophy.
    The ideologist adopts instantly the entire credo of a group because of an emotional / romantic / image-based need, or a need to belong.
    This is what the “phases” of adolescents are, seeking belonging, or seduced by imagery.
    It is true that most, having passed through this stage, and being working-class (99% of the world’s population are working class), have little time on their hands for thought beyond that of working for their living and struggling to raise families etc. Life under capitalism means it is convenient to rely on mainstream media, and hence be patriotic and trusting of whichever nation-state apparatus governs them and the news it puts out.
    Minorities, some small, some large, will seek belonging, still, in groups and cults which, demonstrating some “rebelliousness” or “difference” from “the herd” give them the sense of belonging through difference. Such are converts to religions, racist groups, anything that has a leader or pundit to follow, and by following, belong. For some, the more outrageous and the more reviled, the better.
    All these are ideology.

    Philosophy, however, is very different from ideology.
    The philosopher does not accept the entirety of someone else’s thought, nor reject that entirety, on the basis of agreement or disagreement in one or two particulars. A philosopher does not require leaders to follow. S/he does not wish to lead. S/he is not interested in imagery. S/he doesn’t care about belonging to anything. S/he may be mistaken in things, but cannot be brainwashed. There is no danger for the philosopher in listening to or watching or reading any media or propaganda.
    S/he is not susceptible to brainwashing, neither by the state nor by any cult, neither by the majority nor any minority.
    The only way to damage the philosopher is to physically do so, by violence applied to the brain.
    The philosopher sifts information in the light of views – philosophy – developed through the course of their lifetime. This is why philosophers usually disagree about most things. If s/he joins a group it is not to find belonging; it is not because of any need to be in a group. It is purely because of a shared interest.
    The philosopher does not abdicate his/her thought in order to be part of a group or party.

    #261200
    DJP
    Participant

    Sadly that essay doesn’t reflect how most people that write in any depth about “ideology” use the term at all. It’s far too simplistic.

    #261201
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Most people who write about socialism don’t mean what we do by it, yet they can write volume after volume.

    (Beware of valuing what ‘most people’ go by).

    #261203
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Many writers who oppose the Socialist Party are saying that we are too simplistic because we do not write extensive articles, but the thing is that the socialist party has been able to explain complicated terms and concepts in a very simple way. The socialist party has also indicated that most of its members are simple members of the working class, and some are not intellectuals

    #261204
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Stalin and the Russian orthodox church became allied during the period of World War 2, and each benefited from that alliance.

    The church obtained certain properties back again, and they were used to propagate patriotism and to motivate the peasants to fight against the devil known as Nazism among the vast majority of the russian population who were religious people, even though the state propagated atheism, responded to the patriotic call of the state and the church.

    The Catholic Church in several countries around the world signed Concordatos with dictators, and both benefited from those agreements.

    The church supported the dictatorship and avoided the rebellion of peasants and religious believers. When the dictators disagreed with the church, they supported movements to overthrow them.

    They obtained monetary contributions from the national production, and Catholicism became the official religion of the nation.

    And catholicism was part of the educational system at that time. The dictators were placed by god in power, and the dictators benefited themselves by avoiding rebellion and discontent among the population.

    It is a combination of religious ideology and capitalist ideology; it is similar to syncretism.

    #261205
    DJP
    Participant

    I too am a simple member of the working class.

    But I can also work out then when any writer of merit writes about “ideology” they are writing about more than simple brainwashing.

    Liberal ideology was formulated by *philosophers* such as Hobbes, Locke, Bentham etc. I think TM needs to go back to the drawing board with his distinctions.

    But whatever, I’ve said enough now.

    #261206
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Only one thing here is inaccurate.

    Stalin recreated the Moscow Patriarchate (the official Russian Orthodox Church) in 1927 so that there would be a Church friendly to the state. It is analogous to the Constitutional Church permitted by the French Revolution.

    The Russian bishops had been killed or driven into hiding by Trotsky’s persecution of the Church. Most of those surviving refused later to have anything to do with Stalin’s patriarchate. Instead, they formed the Catacomb Church inside Russia, in communion with the Tsarist Russian Church in Exile.

    So the Moscow Patriarchate today, which served to bolster patriotism in WW2, was Stalin’s baby, and has continued to honour him, rejecting destalinisation. The Tsarist exiles tended to sympathise with the Nazis, who were accompanied by white Cossack brigades.

    The Tsar’s Moscow Patriarchate was set up in 1917 and had only one incumbent before it was dissolved. It had replaced the Holy Synod, which had governed ecclesiastical matters before 1917.

    #261207
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    I do not consider Hobbes etc to be ideologues. They are philosophers.

    I keep things simple which are simple, and had no truck with so-called “philosophy courses” at university.

    Philosophy is simply philo-sophia (φιλο σοφια), love of wisdom.

    #261208
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Adam Smith was also a philosopher and an economist, and he wrote about ethics and morality. Robert Owen was also a philosopher, and Saint Simon was a philosopher. Engels indicated that England was the birthplace of modern materialism, although philosophy evolved with the Indian ( from India ) and the Greek

    #261210
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Exactly!

    #261212
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    A useful aide mémoire:

    Philosopher rhymes with thinker;
    Ideologue rhymes with rogue. 😀

    #261213
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Many scientific conceptions came through Paganism, and some scientists were pagans because religion and science were still together. After all, natural sciences have evolved by themselves, and both have separated. Medicine was not born with the Greeks; it was born in Africa and among the Egyptians. The merits of the Greeks are that they explained that diseases were produced by natural causes instead of divine intervention. Hippocrates was also a philosopher and a scientist. Many scientists, biologists and mathematicians were philosophers

    #261216
    Wez
    Participant

    CIT: ‘it would be difficult to establish a personal dictatorship’ – It wasn’t easy for Hitler either but he did it and Trump and Farage are having a damn good attempt at it. I have never been convinced that Fascism is confined to the historical context when it was conceived- if that were so why isn’t Marxian Socialism confined to the late 19th century?
    As for TM’s assertion that philosophers are not susceptible to ideology would seem to be ridiculous as many of them actually instigated many ideologies (whether intentionally or not) including Plato, Nietzsche, Sartre, John Stuart Mill etc., etc. Indeed Marx’s analysis of any given philosophy usually started with the cultural and class background of the philosopher concerned.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Wez.
    #261218
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Philosophers are not responsible for ideologues hijacking their names.

    Nietzsche made it clear in Thus Spake Zarathustra that leaders and followers are abhorrent to him.

    “Only when you have all rejected me will I return to you.”

    #261220
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Ideorogues set up ideologies generally consisting of dogmas which are the total antithesis of the thinking of those they claim as their heroes.

    Nietzsche / Hitler
    Marx / Lenin, Mao, Stalin etc
    Rousseau / Robespierre
    Epicurus / Epicureanism,
    debauchery.
    Darwin / Social Darwinism.

    Are the originals to be blamed?

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