100% reserve banking

May 2024 Forums General discussion 100% reserve banking

Viewing 15 posts - 181 through 195 (of 347 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #86901
    ALB
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Banks borrow short-term, on the wholesale markets, and lend long-term (Northern Rock got about 70 per cent of its funding from the wholesale market and repackaged it in the form of high-risk mortgage loans). The difference between the rates a bank pays and the rates a bank charges is its profit. (Oiliver Kamm in today's Times).

    Actually, more accurarely, it's the source of a bank's income, of which profit is only one part (wages and other expenses have to come out of it too). Still, there's no nonsense here about banks creating the money they lend out of thin air. As Kamm says, they have to get it in the first place.

    #86902
    ALB
    Keymaster

    According to Positive Money a referendum will eventually take place in Switzerland on their proposal for banking and monetary reform:http://positivemoney.org/2015/11/swiss-citizens-initiative-collects-105000-signatures-triggers-referendum-on-money-creation/Positive Money believe that banks, as part of the banking system including a central bank, can create money out of nothing  by a simple keyboard stroke and propose that this supposed power should be taken away from them and that they be allowed to lend only what has been deposited with them. But, as banks do not have that power and already have to fund what they lend (from borrowing on the money market as well from outside deposits), their proposal is unnecessary. It's aimed at dealing with a non-problem. If enacted it would make it more difficult for banks to fulfil their key role under capitalism of channelling otherwise unused money into business investment. This could slow down the accumulation of capital and so provoke an economic crisis.  They believe that their proposal would in fact reduce bank lending and propose to compensate for this by the state printing more money to be invested. But most of this will be over-compensation, resulting in inflation, massive inflation in fact.I don't suppose Swiss voters will fall for this. Not that monetary/banking reform will solve or even alleviate any of the problems workers face under capitalism; if ill-conceived, it could even make matters worse, at least temporarily until it is repealed.

    #86903
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    A follow up article on the Swiss referendum herehttps://www.rt.com/business/327118-switzerland-money-banking-referendum/

    Quote:
    “Banks won’t be able to create money for themselves anymore, they’ll only be able to lend money that they have from savers or other banks, or even, if necessary, money that the Swiss National Bank has provided them,” the campaign said in a statement on their petition website…Most people believe that the money they have in their bank accounts is real money… This is wrong! Money in a bank account is… a promise the bank makes to provide money, but it is not itself legal tender…

    http://www.vollgeld-initiative.ch/fa/img/Texte_Dokumente_deutsch/151022_Vollgeld-Initiative_Fuenf_Fragen__fuenf_Antworten_translated_22Nov15.pdf

    #86904
    ALB
    Keymaster

    This whole thing is ridiculous:

    Quote:
    Banks won’t be able to create money for themselves anymore, they’ll only be able to lend money that they have from savers or other banks, or even, if necessary, money that the Swiss National Bank has provided them,

    This is more or less what happens today !I think that what they are proposing is that banks should no longer be able to lend out money deposited in a current (as opposed to a savings) account. They'll just have to keep it as if they were a safe deposit service. That doesn't make sense from a capitalist point of view as it means that temporarily unused money won't be able to be channelled to those who want money to spend and are prepared to pay interest to borrow it.It is also likely to mean that banks will have to charge for storing people's current account money, i.e charges will go up. No more "free" banking. I imagine that this is what the opponents of the measure will be emphasising during the referendum campaign and could be a winner for them. We'll see.Strictly speaking, this is not currency crankism as the proposed measure is feasible, just silly.

    #86905
    dms
    Participant

    OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, Positive Money is misleading because any money "created out of thin air" needs to be accounted for the moment it leaves the bank. I.e. I may be able to borrow £100 but the moment I withdraw it in cash the bank needs to be able to account for that money on its books, either through deposits or through its own borrowing. Is that right?In other words it's no different to my using a charge card. In a sense I created that "out of thin air" whenever I use it but I have to make sure that the money is there when the bill is due, either by borrowing or through wages.

    #86906
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Sort of. Nobody can spend what they don't have, whether their own or borrowed. Businesses including banks can't either. But of course there are differences between you and a bank. A bank aims to make a profit and practises double entry book-keeping.A bank's profit comes from the interest it charges (not all of it but what's left after it has paid its expenses including staff wages and interest on any money it has itself borrowed).Double entry book-keeping means that when a bank (or any business) acquires an asset or a liability this must be balanced, in the accounts, by a corresponding liability or asset. Thus, when a bank makes a loan this liability has to balanced by a corresponding entry in the asset column (the borrower's IOU to repay the loan). But nothing new has been created. This is just an accounting convention. That's all that the famous "stroke of a pen", or these days keyboard stroke, does.A better example would be if you were a moneylender, i.e if like a bank you lend money but your own money. You could even practise double entry book-keeping. But you would not be able to lend more money than you had. You could try but you would soon come unstuck and find yourself unable to honour a promise to pay someone money. The difference between a bank and moneylender is only that a bank is lending other people's money.Banks are essentially financial intermediaries, borrowing money at one rate of interest and relending it at a higher rate. Their economic role under capitalism is the useful one for capitalism of making available for investment and other spending purchasing power that would otherwise remain dormant.

    #86907
    dms
    Participant

    Thanks ALB for the detailed answer. I think where you and Positive Money part company is they say the debt itself is an asset and does not need to be matched with a deposit or through borrowing money unless the lender defaults. For example,  in their description of the banking crisis they say the banks only ran into trouble when it became clear loans would not be repayed. This meant they had a deficit on their balance sheet which had to be matched through borrowing money which they werenot able to do.As I understand your argument, you're saying the bank has to ensure it has the money to cover a loan the moment it leaves the bank. That's where the difference is, I think.

    #86908
    DJP
    Participant
    dms wrote:
    As I understand your argument, you're saying the bank has to ensure it has the money to cover a loan the moment it leaves the bank. That's where the difference is, I think.

    No, I don't think that is what ALB was saying. None of this is made any clearer by the modern more looser definition of "money". If I'm correct I think the actual clearing between commercial banks and the central banks happens at the end of the business day.Loans aren't made "out of nothing" but out of the debtor's promise to pay. The are a claim to a *future* income stream.I don't see how positive money can say both things at once. If loans are made out of nothing then there would be no restriction on when they could be issued.

    #86909
    jondwhite
    Participant

    I may have said this before in this topic, but I would love to issue unlimited loans to help my friends out if the Positive Money case were true.

    #86910
    dms
    Participant
    DJP wrote:
    If loans are made out of nothing then there would be no restriction on when they could be issued.

    I guess the restriction is whether or not the borrower has the ability to repay. Under the PM model of banking the bank only has to ensure their assets (the loan agreements) match their liabilities (deposits in accounts). If they start issuing dodgy loans to people and they get defaulted on then they are at risk at not being able to cover people wanting to withdraw their money.

    #86911
    ALB
    Keymaster

    For a different, more plausible explanation of why some banks got into trouble see the article in this month's Socialist Standard:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2016/no-1337-january-2016/hbos-horse-boltedIt wasn't just bad loans but also how some even of the good loans were funded.I'm not sure about your last paragraph. A bank might be able to make a loan and then find the funding fairly quickly afterwards. The article in the Bank of England Quarterly Bulletin quoted here describes what happens when a bank wants to expand its lending:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1317-may-2014/cooking-books-harry-graeber-and-magic-wand

    Quote:
    whether through deposits or other liabilities, the bank would need to make sure it was attracting and retaining some kind of funds in order to keep expanding lending.
    #86912
    DJP
    Participant
    dms wrote:
    I guess the restriction is whether or not the borrower has the ability to repay. Under the PM model of banking the bank only has to ensure their assets (the loan agreements) match their liabilities (deposits in accounts). If they start issuing dodgy loans to people and they get defaulted on then they are at risk at not being able to cover people wanting to withdraw their money.

    I agree with the description. But don't see how this squares with the claim of loans being created "out of nothing".

    #86913
    ALB
    Keymaster
    dms wrote:
    Under the PM model of banking the bank only has to ensure their assets (the loan agreements) match their liabilities (deposits in accounts).

    That's easy. It's just double entry book-keeping when the bank makes a loan. It's irrelevant as far as the question of where the money loaned comes from.Incidentally, not all "deposits" are liabilities as there are the two different kinds of "deposit".The original, more normal definition is where someone from outside the bank deposits a sum of money. In this case, the money in the deposit is the bank's asset and the bank's IOU to repay the money its liability.Then there are "deposits" the PM model above is talking about where the bank agrees to lend someone money and opens a deposit in their name with a credit of the amount of the loan. In this case, it is the deposit that is the liability and the lender's IOU to repay it that is the asset. In other words, the opposite to the more normal sense.So some "deposits" are assets and some are liabilities. No wonder there's confusion but I'd have thought it was obvious that the money a bank lends comes its real, non-paper assets, the money deposited with it and what it itself has borrowsed.If Positive Money really think that a bank could operate without outside funding why don't they practise what they preach and start their own bank (suggested name: The Bank of Thin Air).  In fact, why has nobody ever done this, not even Ponzi?

    #86914
    jondwhite
    Participant
    ALB wrote:
    If Positive Money really think that a bank could operate without outside funding why don't they practise what they preach and start their own bank (suggested name: The Bank of Thin Air).  In fact, why has nobody ever done this, not even Ponzi?

    This is the big question. I would borrow a million pounds from the "Bank of Thin Air", so suddenly they are "worth" a millon pounds. I might not be able to pay them back but presumably that won't be a problem as far as they are concerned.

    #86915
    DJP
    Participant
    ALB wrote:
    If Positive Money really think that a bank could operate without outside funding

    They don't seem to think this, but seem to be holding two contrary positions at once:http://positivemoney.org/2012/07/if-banks-can-create-money-how-come-northern-rock-went-bust/

Viewing 15 posts - 181 through 195 (of 347 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.