TrueScotsman
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Combatting Tankie Denialism.
The episode is a joke. If the podcasters were serious about the history they could have invited Furr on their show to defend his positions. They were too gutless to do so. And “tankie” is not an insult, it is a compliment. The tanks rolled in to put down counterrevolution.
“No major historians of the Purges believe that the Moscow Trials were fair or accurate.”
Because they are careerists. The simple truth is that you cannot tell the truth about Stalin. To do so touches the third rail and is career destroying. Which is why Furr can do so. He is not tenured in a history department. At any rate your argument is an appeal to authority fallacy.
“When the USSR admit culpability for the Katyn massacre”
Not the USSR, Gorbachev who was a neo-liberal, traitor and is now one of the most despised people in Russia. He lied as Furr convincingly argues.
“when NKVD files were researched, Furr insists it is not true and Gorbachev and Yelsin were smearing Stalin”
He does indeed. Alan, friend of the CIA, who hasn’t read a word of Furr’s research, has no authority to comment on it.
“As for Marx, he too expressed conspiracist ideas accusing Lord Palmerston of being Tsarist agent, writing anti-Russian propaganda on behalf of the Scottish aristocrat Urquhart”
Irrelevant.
“The answer was no and ”Xu then refused to march.'”
So he disobeyed a direct order? As already stated, the original objective of the government was to clear the approaches to the Square with unarmed soldiers. Rioters (probably colour revolutionists) attacked the soldiers that were doing so. The resulting violence thus originated with the rioters. If all commanders had disobeyed their orders as Xu did, the colour revolutionists may well have won. If the story is true, Xu deserved his fate. And I say “if” because the article goes on…
“There has been no public corroboration of this account by Zhao or those close to him.”
The article then states…
“General (He Yanran) was also court-martialled because his armoured personnel carriers and trucks were burned down by angry onlookers and he refused to disperse them,” said the serving general, through the mutual acquaintance.”
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Many soldiers were burnt to death in those vehicles. Yanran was clearly negligent.
“Note the article refers to hundreds, not thousands killed and it states around the Square, not in it”
Both facts you were completely unaware of Alan. I have a friend like you, he can never admit when he is wrong either.
“The fact that Furr has no scholarly support for his “research””
Does Alan care to support that claim with any evidence?
“and his area of professional expertise is medieval poetry”
And Marx’s was law and philosophy yet you accept his economic and historical analysis do you not? Alan’s hypocrisy is, once more, glaring.
“So the Palestinian struggle is an internal affair of Israel and that is the reason to not support the BDS campaign.”
As far as I am aware, no country on earth supports BDS. It is a consumer and local government led boycott. China acts through the UN as is its duty under international law.
“And if a Palestinian is throwing rocks, the IDF are entitled to shoot them as in the Zambian case I referred to (proportionate response?”
Alan makes a false equivalency. A civilian manager on an isolated mining site is in no way comparable to heavily armed soldiers in armored vehicles.
“Does it really matter whether it is a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand protesters were killed in the streets around Tiananmen Sq and not in the actual square?”
It does indeed. For years Alan has smeared the CCP for mowing down helpless students on Tienanmen Square. He then smeared those who correctly pointed out that there was no massacre on the Square. “There was!” admonished Alan. He was adamant, he swore til blue in his face about conspiracies and denialism. Now, dear reader, Alan admits there was indeed no one killed on the Square. He was lied to yet relished the lie, spread it far and wide.
The lie exposed, Alan cries, “Well what of it?! Thousands, nay millions were killed elsewhere!” Says who? The same liars who told him of the slaughter on the Square? I have already linked to an excellent article that completely upends the western propaganda narrative. Here it is again for your reading pleasure.
“(I still remember the Kent State Massacre and only 4 got killed)”
Remind me then, how many soldiers did the students at Kent State burn alive and string from bridges?
“So because the shootings didn’t occur on the Square but in other streets, it means that there was no massacre…duh!”
““…By 11:00 pm [on June 3], the troops, still unable to advance [from Muxidi], began firing live weapons directly at the crowds”
Alan’s source makes no mention of Molotov cocktails or immolated soldiers. I wonder why?
There was a riot. Gangs of criminals were setting alight entire columns of PLA APCs. Some 400 of them to be precise. They were burning soldiers alive. You do that, you get shot. Would happen anywhere.
“But there’s no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing.”
That is true. But very few of those killed were students. Most were rioters, 40 odd were students who joined them, soldiers/police and some unlucky civilians caught in the crossfire.
The first soldiers to make for the Square were completely unarmed. Their way was blocked by barricades and unruly mobs. They were ordered to return armed. The soldiers, pelted with Molotov cocktails and shot at with looted weapons, opened fire. The rest is history.
“Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.”
The government has admitted to quelling a riot with some 300 resulting deaths. Alan’s source is therefore inaccurate and loses all credibility.
“You fail to acknowledge British diplomatic cables as evidence although those were not used by the media but remained secret.
Similarly, you will dismiss USA diplomatic details also kept secret
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/#12-29”
Alan’s link is full of wild speculation though there is some truth to be gleaned…
“”thousands of civilians stood their ground or swarmed around military vehicles. APCs were set on fire, and demonstrators besieged troops with rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails.”
“Again it reported that it is the 27th Army being held responsible for the indiscriminate shooting, and the local garrison troops of the 38th Army confronting them.”
The troops were pacifying armed rioters. Usually ends poorly for the rioters.
“As for implying the protests in Hong Kong was to stop the extradition of a wife-murderer, the protesters offered very easy resolutions to that without changing the Hong Kong agreement with Mainland. The extradition bill was eventually withdrawn, but too late to placate the protesters.”
Alan thinks that the government could have reasoned with the protesters. That is because he has no understanding of the tactics of colour revolution. During colour revolution you only make vague, constantly changing or impossible to meet demands, you never accept concessions.
“TS can if he wishes construe any message to suit his position and ignore statements made that are contrary.”
Alan continues to tie himself in knots. But he has already revealed his true self.
“But his silence about the Palestinian BDS movement and China’s non-support”
China does not interfere in the internal affairs of foreign countries as is its obligation as a signatory to the United Nations. But Alan, who counts the CIA as one of his friends, cares not for international law. He prefers instead to smear fellow socialists.
Non-interference in states’ internal affairs as a UN Charter principle (Part I)
“he is willing to sacrifice the Palestinian aspirations”
I’ve absolutely no doubt that Alan has smeared his bile over every Palestinian socialist group ever to have existed. To say China does not support the Palestinians is simply untrue as evidenced in the UN where China has singled out Israel for its aggression.
“to the growth of Chinese political, economic and military power. Much the same as the US, UK, and EU self-interest.”
China’s military buildup is a direct response to US containment policy. The US surrounds China with 400 military bases and tens of thousands of troops. A 2016 RAND report concludes that, if not attacked by 2025, the US will be unable to maintain its supremacy over China. Alan would have China roll over and die, its population plunged into Libya style chaos and penury. Alan, champion of the Chinese worker! LOL
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/coming-war-china-john-pilger-17012111
“The moment Beijing perceived it was losing control of Hong Kong, it asserted its control more firmly.”
Alan would prefer fascist gangs ruled the streets setting on fire and brutalising those with whom they disagreed, destroying the cities infrastructure and bringing the economy to a standstill.
“When it was resisted, Beijing imposed harsher restrictions.”
As would every other government on earth.
“Both the 2014 and 2019 protest movements were sparked by Beijing implementing legislation limiting the autonomy of Hong Kong residents.”
The 2019 protests were sparked over a proposed extradition law to bring to justice a man who murdered his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan. He then packed her body in a suitcase and fled to Hong Kong. The law was designed to bring him to justice. The murderer still walks free in Hong Kong to this day because the Hong Kong government caved to the protesters and withdrew the bill.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/23/asia/hong-kong-taiwan-murder-intl-hnk/index.html
“Rather than being initiated by foreign incitement, they were a reaction to moves by Beijing.”
Distract all one wishes that it was a plot by the CIA/NED”
Alan, it seems, has a bad memory. He has already acknowledged the role his friends in the CIA played in funding and organising the protests.
“But the fact is that opinion polls show a majority were in favour of the pro-democracy movement and against the Chinese state’s repression.”
Repressing fascists terrorising ones’ population bad. So I guess Hitler should have been allowed to win WW2 then? Alan has many friends.
“There has been very little support for any actual breakaway from China and such had never been a demand of the protest movement.”
Alan keeps saying things that are demonstrably false. Naughty Alan, no supper for you.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1193049.shtml
“But as someone who believes that the deaths of protesters in 1989 at Tiananmen Sq is a hoax”
A hoax indeed. Who are you going to believe, me or the Columbia Journalism Review?
“The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square.”
https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php
“TS is not known for his understanding of history, trusting in Grover Furr for his knowledge of Stalin’s Russia”
Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, Alan gotta smear. Alan has never read a single word written by Grover Furr. He has no authority to comment on his work.
“Don’t you know that policemen and armed forces are members of the working class ? They must also obtain political and class consciousness”
LOL, CIA agents and police officers of the world unite, viva la revolucion!
“No he does not believe anything of the sort. It will be the mature, politically conscious task of the immense majority to make it happen and not the minority vanguardist led actions of pseudo-revolutionaries.”
Said no serious revolutionary ever. How’s that working out for your mob? Zero success in over a century? At least your track record of failure is consistent, I guess?
“A poor policeman ( most were peasants who joined the police force without any type of academic education”
Cry me a river for the “poor policeman” whose job it is to crush strikes, evict families from their homes, enforce private property relations and gun down protesters and revolutionaries. The world’s smallest violin is playing for them.
“There were Maoist groups robbing banks to finance their own operations and killing the employees of the banks, as well there were Maoist groups dealing with the drug traffics to finance their operations, and many of those groups were financed by the CPC.”
MS believes the ruling class is spontaneously overthrown by people sipping cups of tea and eating scones. LOL
“National Endowment for Democracy money – No secret”
So, you now admit that the US was funding the protests just as I have been saying? Does that mean you are a “conspiracy theorist” too? LOL
“And let us not forget George Soros and Jimmy Lai’s money.”
Given that I’ve previously mentioned Jimmy Lai’s role in the protests what makes you think I have forgotten? He is now under arrest for his activities.
Behind a made-for-TV Hong Kong protest narrative, Washington is backing nativism and mob violence
“Should have Lenin rejected the Kaiser’s money?
Should have the 1916 Irish rebels refused the Kaiser’s help?”
Alan now asks why shouldn’t the CIA be funding and organising colour revolutions in nations the US targets for regime change. A statement so despicable that he should be expelled from any socialist party worth its salt. Alan shows his true colours and fully reveals himself to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I don’t have enough invective in me to fully express how little I think of him.
“The NED was founded in 1983 following a series of scandals that exposed the CIA’s blood-soaked covert actions against foreign governments. ‘It would be terrible for democratic groups around the world to be seen as subsidized by the CIA,’ NED President Carl Gershman told the New York Times in 1986. ‘We saw that in the Sixties, and that’s why it has been discontinued. We have not had the capability of doing this, and that’s why the endowment was created.’
Another NED founder, Allen Weinstein, conceded to the Washington Post’s David Ignatius, ‘A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.’”
“In the past, China and the CPC financed most of the Maoist parties and guerrillas movements”
Are you saying there is a moral equivalency between socialist support for revolutionary groups and CIA support for reactionary groups? You are a joke MS.
“The coalition cited by Hong Kong media, including the South China Morning Post and the Hong Kong Free Press, as organizers of the anti-extradition law demonstrations is called the Civil Human Rights Front. That organization’s website lists the NED-funded HKHRM, Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions, the Hong Kong Journalists Association, the Civic Party, the Labour Party, and the Democratic Party as members of the coalition.”
