robbo203
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You’ve got to love the latest argument from these pseudo socialists
LT
At least we are advocating socialism ; you are not . And you have the perfect excuse for putting socialism perpetually on the back boiler (if you were ever interested in it in the first place which I doubt) – namely, rallying the lesser evil cause of Biden and his neoliberal cronies. That is because your Democratic Party will never realise the reformist expectations you place on it. Capitalism will grind your hopes into bitter disappointment. You wait and see.
If opposing a capitalist party like the Democrats make us “pseudo-socialist” what does supporting such a party make you?
This article is interesting for exposing the very flawed system of “democracy” in the US
When our companion World Socialist Party — the Socialist Party of Australia — stood for the seat of Melbourne Ports in the 1934 federal election, our candidate urged “people not to vote for him unless they understood socialism and its implications”.
He got 10% of the vote against a formidable campaigner Jack Holloway, head of the Melbourne Trades Hall Council, who had actually defeated the Prime Minister of Australia, Stanley Melbourne Bruce, at the previous election.
And during the election the “communist comrades” called us “social fascists”.
Bit like somebody here calling us “Trumpers” because we refuse to vote for the arch capitalist Biden (along with Trump)
There is no contradiction in what I said at all LT
I was not say dont vote at all under any circumstance. Rather I was specifying the circumstance when one should vote – when there is a socialist on the ballot
Even when there is no socialist on the ballot you can still vote by spoiling your ballot. Spoiling your ballot is still voting. It is registering a protest even if it does not count towards electing a candidate
LT
So called public ownership is a complete misnomer. The Public do not own a state owned industry any more than they own one in the hands of a private corporation. State property is the collective private property of a ruling class – the national capitalists
Engels made this very point over 140 years ago:
“The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. “
(Socialism: Utopian and Scientific)
You have yet to show me how not voting changes things. Please provide an example anywhere in the world. I’m waiting.
Nobody has suggested not voting. Rather what has been suggested is not voting for any capitalist politician he or she be a “lesser evil” or a “greater evil”. Voting for a capitalist politician means endorsing capitalism, And as long as you continue to endorse capitalism things wont change I afraid – not in any fundamental significant sense. A tiny parasite class will continue to enrich themselves at the expense of the great majority whose lives will be rendered insecure and relatively if not absolutely impoverished
The only way you can administer capitalism is in the interests of capital and against wage labour. Even a Bernie Sanders government, never mind a neoliberal like Biden, will in the end be forced to side with the capitalists against the working class. Whether or not he is happy with such a prospect is completely besides the point. The destiny of a Sanders government is not in his hands
So no – not voting wont change things . Only voting for a genuine alternative to capitalism and its wage system will do that. Until that happens on a sufficiently large enough scale nothing will change
Elated that Trump wasn’t re-elected. You still don’t get it. Your idealism is blinding you, trumper.
Dont be ridiculous LT. No one here even remotely supports Trump. But then we dont support any other capitalist politician either even if they may be marginally less obnoxious than Trump. Being the lesser evil is still no excuse for voting for Biden if that is what he is. Now that you have voted for Biden you are in no position to complain about what comes next. You got the government you campaigned for. You sided with Wall St in choosing their man. Yet another prole rallying to the cause of the neoliberal establishment
And then you have the nerve to call us “pseudo-socialists”. Hilarious
LT
You must be quite elated now. Your guy is now the 46th President of USA. Phew it took quite a while but you got there eventually.
Out to celebrate on the town tonight?
LT
I asked you to explain the <b>circumstances</b> under which you imagine, socialism will come to fruition. I did not ask you about the means by which this might happen. The circumstances and the means are two different things
I will vote for a genuine socialist candidate where there is one to vote for. Where there is not I will write “world socialism” across my ballot. A spoilt ballot contrary to myth is not a wasted ballot. The vote is important I agree but it is also important not to waste it on voting for a capitalist party as you advocate
The fact that you can say “There are a number of emerging socialist countries that have done that over the last century, and they have all done that incrementally.” tells me that there is vast gulf in our understanding of what constitute socialism.
There are no “socialist countries” and there never were any. Capitalism is global but it takes different forms/ You are using the term “socialism” in the Leninist sense to signify a form of “state capitalist monopoly” (Lenin’s words).
The SPGB uses the term socialism in its pre-Leninist or Marxist sense to means a stateless classless wageless and marketless alternative to capitalism. A synonym for communism. The SPGB is fundamentally opposed to Leninism, its obnoxious vanguardist outlook and the state capitalist agenda it has historically served
Arguing from the philosophy of idealism is proof of not understanding socialism. Marx’s work is philosophically based on the philosophy of materialism, which is rooted in relativism, not idealism. The idea of lessor or greater is an example of relativism, not idealism. Hence, if you are suggesting that you should not vote based on the idea of lesser (or greater) in the name of holding out for the “ideal”, then you are not a socialist. In other words, there is nothing “ideal”, everything is relative.
Bullshit LT
If workers dont understand or want socialism you cannot realise or bring about socialism. Period. The revolution by its very nature has to be a conscious socialist revolution . That is the ABC of Marxism. Promoting an understanding of the kind of society to replace capitalism has got nothing to do with idealism. You dont understand what idealism means
I note you continue to evade my point that voting for the “lesser evil” almost invariably prepares the ground for the “greater evil” to eventually come to power because the former will invariably fail to live up to the expectations of its followers
Examples aside. Surely you can agree that hypothetically, however unlikely it may be, there could be a situation where, in the absence of a significant amount of people who would vote for socialism, voting for one capitalist party instead of another could be the most advantageous thing to do for a socialist? (Perhaps one party wants to outlaw socialism for example)
DJP
All that will do is to perpetuate indefinitely the very circumstance in which there will continue to be an absence of a significant amount of people who would vote for socialism.
There is no way of getting round this. Voting for a capitalist party however reluctantly or half heartedly means endorsing capitalism and emboldening the forces of capitalism We have to take moral responsibility for our own actions
That aside if there is not significant amount of people who would vote for socialism then why should socialists bother voting for some capitalist political party seeing as its not going to make much difference anyway? Its not worth the effort and whatever good it might hypothetically achieve is more than outweighed by its negative impact on the socialist cause, pushing it even further down the path of insignificance, demoralisation and eventual oblivion.
Fine if that is not an issue with you but it emphatically is with me. I’m buggered if I am going to allow allow some seedy capitalist outfit operated by a bunch of career politicians take precedence or priority over a genuine socialist political organisation when it comes to the vote
LT
Firstly lets get real here. The number of socialists in the US – those who understand and advocate socialism in the sense that we are talking about here (not left wing advocates of more state intervention aka state capitalism) is minuscule. Consequently our attitude towards Biden’s capitalist party which we oppose ( just as we oppose Trump’s capitalist party) is not really going to make any difference as to whether Trump continued in power or not.
Maybe if the socialist movement was much larger it would make a slight difference but I presume that, even then, you would continue supporting a capitalist party likes Biden’s rather than support the socialist party on the grounds that it is more important to keep somebody like Trump out of power than advance the cause of socialism.
This brings me to my second point concerning your statement “Socialism would never come to fruition with your idea of radical, overnight change” . It would be highly instructive to learn from you what precisely are the circumstances under which, you imagine, socialism will come to fruition in that case
See, according to you it is vital that workers support the lesser capitalist evil (Biden) in order to keep the great capitalist evil (Trump) out of power. But what you dont seem to grasp at all is that it was the precisely dismal failure of the previous lesser capitalist evil (in your terms) – namely, Obama – to address the problems that workers faced that led to huge numbers of them, angry and resentful at the way the Establishment had screwed them over, to turn (however misguidedly) to the populist and allegedly anti-establishment figure of Trump instead. In this way, the lesser capitalist evil ALWAYS creates the conditions for the greater capitalist evil to eventually come to power. Disillusionment is baked into the very nature of capitalists politics
You say that with my attitude , “Trump would be in power for another 4 years: no more health care for tens of millions, no green deal, no social services, no environmental protections whatsoever, etc” I suspect this is probably a gross exaggeration at least in part but are you seriously maintaining that under Biden we can look forward to all these deficiencies being remedied? They certainly were not under Trumps predecessor, Obama
If Biden is not going to remedy then then how can you be sure that in four years time the workers will not turn to another Trump like figure to vote into power having become completely disillusioned with Biden?
In the other hand if Biden will be able to solve these and a multitude of other problems – that is, if capitalism can be reformed in the way that you imagine it could – then what, frankly is the point of striving to bring “socialism into fruition”? If capitalism can satisfactorily address the problems you refer to given the political will of politicians to make this happen, then there is surely no point in looking for an alternative to capitalism is there?
EITHER WAY, then, according to the logic of your own way of thinking there can NEVER be any circumstances under which it would be appropriate to vote for or advocate socialism instead of supporting one or other capitalist political party like the Democrats
In which case why even pretend to be interested in “bringing socialism to fruition”? Why not just be honest about it and admit that the limits of your political horizons extend no further than capitalism and the project of reforming capitalism? Why not just concede that you are basically just some kind of liberal no doubt with good intentions at heart but ultimately not really interested in socialism at all?
