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ALB wrote:

And Thomas More didn't envisage a basic "income" in his "utopia" but a society that didn't use money. Not at all the same.

 Ive tried to get in touch with the  writer, Claire Suddath, to point out some of the problems with her article.  She might respond  so its a case of "watch this space"

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Prakash RP wrote:

 '  In communism the very idea of material rewards becomes obsolete – defunct. You are confusing the communist principle of from each according to ability to each according to need (which is understood to mean free access to goods and voluntary labour) with the Stalinist principle … ' (  ibid  )  All of you are mistaken, and your mistakes seem to be rooted in your delusion that the compulsory work meant to produce social wealth under communism is ' voluntary '. My dear friend, participation in economic activities for money or something in kind can't be ' voluntary '. All sorts of work aimed at the creation of social wealth must be compulsory for everyone that doesn't deserve exemption from work under communism. The reason is the simple fact that economic activities forms the basis for the social economy. And it happens to be the social economy the entire social edifice rests on. Therefore, if participation in economic activities is made voluntary, anyone will be as free to work as free not to work. Thus, if people choose to enjoy their freedom to shun work, it's certain to endanger the existence of society.

 On one point you are correct, Prakash. Insofar as work will indeed be voluntary and uncoerced in a communist society anyone will indeed be "as free to work as free not to work". They will also be free to choose the kind of work they want to do.   All this is quite true and freely acknowledged by us communists.  Moreover,  we see no problem with what is being proposed here AT ALL.  You , on the other hand, see nothing but calamity in such a proposal.  You consider that it is "certain to endanger the existence of society".  Really? How so.   It seems to be that what you are doing is putting forward the typical bourgeois prejudice that human beings are naturally lazy and  slothful.     Never mind that you make no allowance for the fact that most of what passes for work or rather employment today – e.g. all money related occupations – will no longer be needed,  meaning that the overall workload  for society will be far less under communism than it is today.   Never mind, that the conditions under which we shall work then will be vastly improved by comparsion with today.  Never mind that EVEN TODAY under capitalism slightly more than half of all work is carried on outside of the system of a monetary exchange and is voluntary and unremunerated as all work would be in communism.  None of these points seem to register with you.  Instead, you prefer to put the worst possible construction on "human nature",  declaring that society would be "endangered" if its citizens had the freedom to choose.   This has been the rallying cry of reactionaries throughout history.  Instead of adopting such a pessimistic view of human beings why not look upon work – or creative activity – as an essential human need – something that we need to  do to define ourselves as human beings, not just becuase we need to produce food to eat  (or we will starve)  but because we need to express ourselves through creative labour and becuase we need to express our basic social nature and sense of solidarity through human cooperation.  You have mentioned Marx often enough.  You will be well advised to heed what he wrote in  the Critique of the Gotha programme:   "In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! "  (my bold) 

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Interesting article here – with a historical angle to it   https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/personalfinance/what-if-everyone-got-a-monthly-cheque-from-the-government/ar-AAuB0yL?item=personalization_enabled:false

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Bijou Drains wrote:

Prakash RP wrote:

The one-line answer to all these queries is : It's communism, and communism alone, that can create a social environment harmonising with the Principle of Healthy & Meaningful Living .  If you want to lead a healthy and sensible existence befitting the space age you belong to, you've got no other option than to stand for and welcome communism, OK ?  

So tell me, oh Great Originator, for those of us who, under your concept of communist society, choose not to live a healthy and meaningful life, what of people like me, who wish to live a truely meaningless life, indulging in alcohol, fattening foods, indulging in matrimony, smoking tobacco, etc. If I do not chose to live a "sensible" life, but rather lead a life of sillyness, what will become of me and my kind?Will we be banished to re-eduation camps where will sit in wonder at the statue of Prakash RP (aka The great Originator) whilst contemplating our sins against the Principles of a Healthy and Meaningful Life and drinking herbal tea, will we be placed in forced labout camps, where we will be made to chant out incantations to the glorious images of teh Great Prakash RP?

 Its  more like fascism than communism that seems to appeal to him, if you ask me…

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Prakash, your conception of "communism" bears no relation to our –  or the Marxian – conception of communism based on the principle from each according to ability to each according to need. Frankly what you call "communism"  I, as  a communist, oppose.  To me it sounds more like a rigidly centralised totalitarian state in which every individual is closely monitored with respect to what they consume and what labour they perform.   Your can keep your "communism" as fas as I am concerned.   I want nothing to do with it

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Prakash RP wrote:

 And what about you , Adam ? Would you oblige me by making known your stance on the compulsory ' minimum length of the working-day ' under communism and the silly adage ' "from each according to ability, to each according to needs" ' ? Or, will you once again have recourse to something like the silly excuse that there exists a lot of more important stuff than these issues in order to keep mum, I wonder. And I'm not sure whether it'd make sense to ask the SPGB to make known their official position on these most important issues. As far as I can remember, they disgustingly failed, like Adam, to stand for the truth about my claim to have proved first the thesis on money's incapacity.

 Prakash, it has already been explained to you countless times that the concept of a compulsory minimum – or maximum – working day  would be meaningless in a communist society where all labour would be performed on a purely voluntary basis.  Who is going to enforce such a rule – and how and why? The very rule itself presupposes unfree commodified labour – capitalism. If you persistently fail to address this point then, of course, over time people are going to tire of responding to you.  You are at liberty to express your anti-communist sentiments here and dismiss the communistc adage "from each according to ability, to each according to need" as "silly"  but at least be prepared to back up your claims with some solid argument.  Thus far, you have completely failed to do this The same goes for your ridculous vainglorious claim to have  "proved first the thesis on money's incapacity"  There is nothing original in what you said. It has been said countless times before including by  Marx.  Get over it and come off your pedestal for once

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Prakash RP wrote:

Would like to add the following to my last post ( #251 ). ' The minimum length of the working-day ', observes Marx, ' is fixed by this necessary … portion [ i.e. ' that portion of the working-day which the labourer needs  to produce his means of subsistence or their equivalent ' ] of it. ' ( KARL MARX CAPITAL Volume I, chapter XVII, part IV, section ( 2. ) ; PROGRESS PUBLISHERS MOSCOW ; p 496 ) From the above quote, it ought to be obvious to the sensible that communism must fix the ' minimum length of the working-day ', and that no one ( other than the disabled, the sick, minors, and all the senior citizens ) is supposed to work less, because it happens to be the ' minimum length ' of the social working-day, hours than it.

 It is not "obvious" at all  Prakash and for the very simple reason that Marx here is referring to the labourer under capitalism NOT communism.  In communism there is no "minimum or maximum length of the working-day" becuase all work will be done on a voluntary basis.   If I want to work 80 hours  a week in a communist society on a project that I find thoroughly absorbing, just try and stop me!

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

Perhaps this article or an edited version can be distributed at these events April 18th will be the national day of action calling for Universal Credit to be scrapped.  London meet for 11am outside the visitor’s entrance to House of Commons https://dpac.uk.net/2018/03/national-day-of-action-to-stopandscrap-universal-credit-march-1st/ SheffieldAnyone is welcome to come and speak at the demo, just inbox the DPAC Sheffield page or email DPACsheffield@gmail.comSo far we have: Labour sheffield, Women’s lives matter campaign Yorkshire, Sheffield Green party, Momentum Sheffield disability officer, and DPAC.BirminghamMeet New Street, Time to be confirmedBrightonInformation table 10.30am Meet ate the Clock TowerManchesterSt.Peters Square, 13.00-15.00 joining together with Greater Manchester Law Centre and Acorn Tenants Union to say no to evictionsNorwich12.30-14.00Meet City Hall steps from 12.15 pmDPAC Ceredigion will be having a demo outside the job centre, Cardigan.

 Good suggestion Alan.   Mayve the Pub Comm can do something wth it…

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Prakash RP wrote:

  I feel I should elaborate my position on the disputable adage ' "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". ' My main point is communism means equal rewards for equal share of work. Thus in the communist social order, every able-bodied individual of working age must equally share both the total burden of the social workload and the social wealth. The handicapped, the sick, minors, and all those past their working age will also have, like the able-bodied of working age, equal share in the social wealth. Communism need not make, nor does it permit making, anyone overwork or work harder than anyone else just because overwork and idleness are inseparable opposites. 

 This has got nothing to do with communism.  Its more like some kind of regimented barrack-like centralised society in  which everyone is closely monitored by an overarching state.  Once again to repeat the point – the concept of material rewards implies a system of economic exchange (and hence private property) in which the worker is obliged to perform a certain quantum of work in exchange for a  certain quantum of goods.   In communism the very idea of material rewards becomes obsolete – defunct You are confusing the communist principle of from each accrding to ability to each according to need (which is understood to mean free access to goods and voluntary labour) with the Stalinist principle of to each according to their contribution which was actually written into the 1936 Soviet constitution.   But even Stalin understood that this was not full communism.  You appear not to have

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Excellent article.  Having left the UK in late 2004 I can vaguely recall earlier periods of unemployment there, trying to manage on the "dole".  It was tough then  but the bureaucratic rigmarole involved seemed far less taxing and intrusive  by comparison with today.  The present system of Universal Credit  which I gather from the article is currently being rolled out in the UK seems be almost designed to inflict the maximum mental torture on claimants to force them into wage slavery regardless of ther circumstances

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Prakash RP wrote:

'The point is abilities of different individuals, just like their needs, may not be equal. Therefore, the principle of ' from each according to ability; to each according to need ' might be justifiably construed as unequal rewards for unequal amounts of work , RIGHT ? And if unequal quantities of work are exchanged for equal rewards, people like Bill are most likely to make furore claiming that communism symbolises gross INJUSTICE. 

  I dont think you understand what communism/socialism is about Prakesh  if you can come out with comments like this.  There is no remuneration or material "rewards" for work done in such a society.  The basis on which work of performed is completely voluntary  (which is itself the logical corrollary of the fact that goods and services will in general be made available on a "free access"  basis in such society).  Consequently your argument is null and void I think you have completely misunderstood what the expression , 'from each according to ability; to each according to need ' actually means

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acke wrote:

I think that the false public image is the true reason for the degradation of the image of socialism and communism. I liked this article http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/newproposals/article/view/2017/182540 from the "New Propoosals" which clearly explains that the socialism or communism is the natural course of history and developmen of technology and socialism or communism can not be naturally introduced by force of by the common acceptance if there is no sufficient level of technological development for the socio-economic phase transition to occur. 

 Hi  Acke ,   I think that article makes a number of mistakes such as the suggestion that M and E differentiated between socialism and communism  refering to the the former as the lower stage, and the latter as the upper stage of comunism. That was Lenin's view not Marx's. Marx and Engels regarded the terms socialism and communism as synonyms.  Also the the whole idea of Market socialism strikes me as an oxymoron and inherently incoherent in my view – it proposes social ownership of the means of production while retaining the trappings of a market economy in the sphere of distribution.  That makes no sense. I dont think there is any need for socialists today to urge the further development of the producttive forces.  We already have the technology that could make a socialist/communist society a viable proposition.  The problem is not an insufficently developed productive potential but capitalism's iability to properly harness that potential for the good of humanity

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I looked at the Harvey interview you linked to above, Adam .  To put the quote in fuller context this is what Harvey said "Or on the monetary question – we need money to circulate commodities, no question about it. But the problem with money is that it can be appropriated by private persons. It becomes a form of personal power and then a fetish desire. People mobilise their lives around searching for this money even when nobody knows that it is. So we’ve got to change the monetary system – either tax away any surpluses people are beginning to get or come up with a monetary system which dissolves and cannot be stored, like air miles.But in order to do that you’ve also got to overcome the private property-state dichotomy and come to a common property regime"I find it quite extraordinary that someone like Harvey can come up with such muddled nonsense as this .  Yes, you may need money to circulate commodities but do we need commodities and commodity production and how is this compatible with a "common property regime"? Taxing away surpluses will only induce capitalists to shift their capital to other parts of the world where taxes are lower – hence the recent Tax reform bill in the US to lower corporate taxes and entice more domestic investment.  As for coming up with a monetary system in which money "dissolves" (I thought you needed it "to circulate commodities")  and cannot be stored, this  is patently absurd.  Its like wanting capitalism without the accumulation of capital that lies at the heart of the systemHow on earth did this guy manage to pass as an authority on Marx and Marxism? 

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alien1 wrote:

The drivel that passes for serious comment on cryto-currency and the Blockchain in particular seems never ending. That the US immediately banned the Venezuelan crypto should tell you all you need to know – they fear it. Porno on the Bitcoin blockchain is a total joke, have you tried to make a transaction recently? The constsnt attacks on crypto and Bitcoin in particular have failed to crack its underlying value to users. You want to launder drug money – use the banks. You want to watch porn use DVDs or the internet or join a club. You want to sexually abuse children join the police or get in to politics! Porno (or just about anything else) on different blockchains is/will definitely happen. To get some idea of the future have a look at where the Steemit project is going. In the future the world, including a socialist world, is going to run on blockchains. If you think the wheel, internet or the invention of god were a big deal then you are in for shock in the relatively short term as this technology mushrooms/explodes. Yes, they'll even design, build, fly, target and drone us using AI machines created and 'living' on the Blockchain!

 An interesting post, alien1, but I wonder if you could elaborate on your point :"To get some idea of the future have a look at where the Steemit project is going. In the future the world, including a socialist world, is going to run on blockchains" It would also be helpful if you could explain in simply layman's terms for folk like me who dont really understand this technology, what exactly blockchain is and what it does.  

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twc wrote:

 Without Marx’s labour theory of value the marxian enterprise dies.Nothing of value remains, including socialism.[For the discrediting-of-the-discrediting, see Reclaiming Capital by Andrew Kliman https://…Reclaiming-Marxs-Capital.%5D

 A good analysus TWC but I dont think the last inference holds.  There are some "Marxists", for  example, who hold that you can still talk about working class explitation without resorting to the labour theory vof value.  I am not quite sure how they imagine this is possible but presumably in their mind it is.  In principle, you dont need to be  a Marxist to want socialism though it certainly helps…

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