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Bijou Drains wrote:If Parliament didn't have any use or power, then why would capital spend so much money ensuring that its lackeys are elected to parliaments and national assemblies the world over. Capitalisits don't generally spend money of they don't have to!
Legitimation. Persuades people they actually have a voice in running things. Less fuss if the slaves think they're free. The faith in 'actually existing democracy' is a really massive impediment to achieving socialism.
ALB wrote:Of course today the "period of proletaran rule", i.e the use of the state by the socialist-minded, democratically-organised workng class majority to abolish class society by dispossesing the capitalist class, could be passed through fairly rapidly. But of course it has to exist for however short a period as that's what political action to establsh socialism involves.Y'see, that's what worries me about the SPGB and the use of Parliament. You're actually admitting here, quite reasonably, that there will be a "Transitional Period". What prevents this from becoming prolonged indefinitely? Perhaps the 'economic circumstances' aren't 'right for socialism'? Will they ever be until we have Star Trek type replicators (ie. never)? What about that 49.9 reoccuring % who didn't "vote for socialism"? Not just the capitalists but their whole brain dead crew. Are they just going to disperse quietly and return to their homes? And more to the point, what about the 50%+1? Are they really going to be fit to take over running their lives? With all the emphais on the electoral won't they still be, as Lenin said, "people as they are now, people who cannot dispense with subordination and control, and foremen and accountants"?
Enough of my ramblings though. A bit of mess about and manhandling a minister hardly amounts to illegalism or propaganda of the deed. More like your regular protest. At least it's directed at the right people – unlike illegalism. Other times they've gone way overboard but Greeks have a tendency to do that (little bit of racism there). The point about Exarchia is that it is a "liberated area". Something like a big squat. I'm not saying it's going anywhere (Freetown Christiania probably shows it's ultimate fate – not snuffed out but 'redeveloped' – yuppified – with the connivance of its residents) but these sort of alternative communities are quite harmless and possibly beneficial.
"r-r-revolutionary": Any idea where that SPGB meme comes from? Never heard it anywhere else. I think of Terry the Tiger (or whatever his name was, I don't pay a lot of attention to adwerts) – "they're g-r-r-eat!" but I think it might be older than that.
Still, the anarchists of Exarchia did throw Yanis Varoufakis out of his favourite restaurant. They can't be *all* bad.
Threw stones at the riot police, did a sit in at the local paper and set fire to a dumpster. Dawn is near.
ALB wrote:It is not true, eiher, that anarchism is a subset of socialism. Some anarchists do stand for socialism (as a classless, stateless, moneyless, wageless society) but only a minority.Well, aye, but that would equally apply to the majority of bods calling themselves socialist! Self-labelled anarchists have always been pretty diverse, both in principles and tactics, but if we take the 'big men' (the equivalent of Marx) – Kropotkin and Bakunin – would fit the bill. The same could be said of the organised anarchist groups in this country, both historically and contemporary. Personally, I think it is no coincidence that the SPGB stall at the London Anarchist Book Fair was busy, busy, busy (SS sold out I believe). 'Propaganda of the deed' and 'illegalism' – obviously there were dicks back in the day too.
Rusty Pigfumbler wrote:No one put it better than Stalin: 'Some people believe that Marxism and Anarchism are based on the same principles and that the disagreements between them concern only tactics…This is a great mistake. We believe that Anarchists are real enemies of Marxism. Accordingly we also hold that a real struggle must be waged against real enemies.' The founders of the Socialist Party would have endorsed this.Gurgle! Splutter! Not sure if quoting that murderous old red fascist is an appropriate way to back up SPGB principles and policy. Like the SPGB, anarchists certainly were the enemies of Stalin's 'Marxism' even if some collaborated with it (they all came to sticky ends). The true enemy of all socialists (anarchists being a subset) is capitalism, although some seem to have trouble recognising this. If the Founders really did endorse this sentiment, incidentally, why would they be selling literature by Kropotkin – the 'Anarchist Prince'?
Mike Foster wrote:Personally, I'd like more dialogue with anarchist groups, in the spirit of learning about different approaches and perspectives.Mike: With one or two exceptions, I honestly don't think the modern anarchist movement has much to teach the SPGB. It's pretty toxic to be honest. One problem that we do share, however, is a participation problem. In terms of organisation, the new ACG is making attendance at full meetings (ADM/ Conference equivalent) compulsory (ie you have to have a good excuse not to be there) – in the same way that SPGB EC members are supposed to attend EC meetings – and abolished formal delegation (you can forward your views via any member who is attending). I'm not suggesting the SPGB does this but seems like a good idea to me. It also avoids the problem of using delegate status to legitimise your own views. I've probably done this in the past before.
I've put a smiley there to indicate that I am, once again, being a smart arse bastard. I was kind of hoping that someone might comment about the hostility clause. Clearly it works both ways.
Links to other organisations: I suggested that we also open channels to the SPGB. Chappy (who takes the Standard and thinks youse guys are swell!) shot me down in flames. It was kind of inappropriate as I can't see any of that stuff appealing to any of you in retrospect or even being allowed given the hostility clause. By the way, am I still entitled to be on here? I got wiped off the AFed's one asap.
