Bijou Drains
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Dear L Bird
As a way of demonstrating our democratic commitment I am going to open a thread on the forum exclusively for discussion about having an “open and democratic discussion about having ‘science’ under ‘a system of common ownership and genuine democratic control‘. I will use these very words as its title.
You could demonstrate your commitment to democratic discussion by using this thread to discuss this concept and not derailing other threads.
You criticise the SPGB, however I doubt that there are any other political organisations who have tolerated your interjections in the way that we have.
You may even find that other members of the forum are willing to join in the discussion, to start the ball rolling, I will place a question for you on the thread.
All I would say is please behave with a bit of respect and use the thread to show case your ideas and not spread it out all over other threads, like an excited puppy learning to piss on newspaper for the first time.
Vegans don’t eat insects (on purpose anyway)”, as they are sentient beings. There is some debate amongst them about eating bivalves (mussels, oysters, etc) as bivalves don’t have a formal brain structure and whether or not they can feel pain is debatable. I’m not sure what the rule is for killing animals for non food reasons, pest control, etc.
“If just one-quarter of the estimated 33% animal-derived energy in pet food was consumable by humans, it alone would support the animal-derived energy consumption of 26 million Americans (with 19% of their energy in derived from animal products). This same energy is equal to the entire energy requirement of almost 5 million Americans, or approximately the population of Colorado. If animal-derived energy was converted to its plant equivalent, one-quarter of the animal-derived energy in US dogs’ and cats’ food would support ~35 million humans. If even only 5% of the animal-derived energy in pet food could be eaten by humans, this would be equivalent to the animal-product consumption of more than 5 million Americans, and the total energy consumption of 1 million Americans, or about the population of Montana”
Even by your very high cheery arsed standards, you have surpassed yourself with this one, Alan.
Our next election leaflet could read, “Vote for Socialism, vote for eating Pedigree Chum”
I’m sure the working class would be flooding to that particular banner!
“Taxing red meat will save the health service £ millions” is unfortunately another misuse of statistics. A health economist once explained to me that the “economics” of illness prevention do not add up, because the statisticians miss one vital point. At some point we all die.
If we put in place illness prevention, all we are doing is kicking the likelihood of death further down the road, we will all reach it at some point.
Smoking, alcohol and perhaps red meat all might lead to heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. but these are much “cheaper deaths” than Alzheimer’s disease, long term disability, and all of the other enduring and very expensive to treat illnesses of later life, which are effectively “expensive deaths”.
For the capitalist system the optimal health state of the working class is to be hale and hearty until the moment we can work no more, and then for us to die off quickly and inexpensively. Expect to see guidance from the government extolling the health benefits and virtues of smoking, drinking alcohol, eating lard by the bucket full and the daily consumption of a full English (also Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cornish and Northumbrian) breakfast, but only for retirees.
L Bird Wrote –
“Alan wrote “And if you did read my earlier post, i would like your answer to why capitalism continues to be supported.”
Because the alternative to capitalism, ie, socialism, would require a class conscious revolutionary proletariat organised upon democratic lines, to socially produce it.
EVERY ‘materialist’ party tells workers that they can’t change ‘matter’.
Then, underhandedly, those parties propose an elite to take control of the social production of physics, maths, logic, truth, reality, etc., etc.
It’s obvious to any worker who joins those parties that they don’t intend to let workers determine ‘science-for-workers’.
Hence, 135 years after Marx’s death, capitalism is going strong, and will continue to do so, because supposed ‘Marxists’ (ie., ‘materialists’) prevent the self-development of any workers who show any interest in overthrowing capitalism.
Capitalism continues to be supported because it works, and the capitalists don’t pretend that they’re going to hand over control to workers, and then don’t, which is what EVERY ‘materialist’ party that has gotten into power has done.
It’s very clear to all workers, that capitalism is the preferred mode of production for their own interests. There is no alternative to a minority in control of ‘truth’, as the ‘materialists’ keep telling them.
Workers might as well have a competent elite in charge, rather than an incompetent ‘materialist’ elite, who can’t even account for the social and historical development of ‘science’, and wish to drag us all back to the 18th century, before Marx wrote.
Any ‘materialist’ party might as well put Rees Mogg in control.”
Birds and Moggies, something tells me that isn’t a great mix!
“Marx himself clearly warned of the dangers of a ‘materialist’ elite.”
I’m not saying that we do not need to be aware of self proclaimed elites (of whatever persuasion) , but I would be interested if you could provide chapter and verse for your assertion, Birdy boy. Starting to feel like old times again, what with you rattling on and another thread having a troll. All we need now is Brian to tell us all off and start handing out warnings.
It is also nice to think that some of the crypto-religious fuckwits are having a miserable day to day.
“Do I find SPGB meetings extensively advertised on the facebook group…..no I do not. Case proved”
Just because you can’t find it doesn’t mean “case proved” that it isn’t there. All it proves is that you can’t find it. Judging by that questionable use of logic, you leaving the SPGB to join the anarchists may be indicative of a pattern.
Still struggling to work out your crossword clue for you though, is it carrot?
I was talking to someone I know yesterday who is interested in the party case and suggested he join the forum. I looked at the site today and couldn’t find anyway that new members could sign up to join, any one able to offer advice?
I also think it would be really good to have the PM system back, it was very useful.
In terms of other sites, the one that Optrex uses is very good, I would go as far as to day it’s a site for sore eyes 😆 😆
Couldn’t agree more. There is a danger that we could end up being seen as some kind or moralistic sect, this has never been the party case and to me shows an illiberal attitude which is completely at odds with the party case. I have absolutely no objection to the lentil stew mob having options for dining but to have a vegetarian only party function would be outrageous to me.
“They found that climate change can be checked enough only if diets change to include more plant-based food and reductions in meat and dairy products.”
The problem with that formulation is that it is based on a capitalist model of production. A Socialist model of production would cut greenhouse gases dramatically.
Consider all of the greenhouse gases that won’t be produced by the estimated 1/2 of the jobs currently being undertaken that won’t need to be undertaken any more. Just think about the amount of greenhouse gases produced keeping the insurance, banking, finance, accountancy, stock exchange, etc. etc. businesses going.
Think how much greenhouse gases are produced transporting these workers to their place of employment, keeping them warm or cool when they are there, making desks for them to sit behind, producing computers for them to check their emails on, producing printers to print off whatever it is they have been doing, the postal staff employed taking post to and from them, producing water coolers for them to gather around, producing pin stripe suits for them to go to meetings in, etc. etc. etc. You can add to that the greenhouse gases produced flying executives around the world to meaningless conference generating even more hot air!
I’m sure the loss of all of those useless jobs would more than offset the gases created by the production of a few sausages.
There are approximately 35 million rabbits living wild in the UK, another huge food source that is overlooked. There’s a butcher up in the Tyne valley that sells Grey Squirrels, which is a pretty tasty treat as well.
Add to that all of the wasted food because people don’t want to eat ugly veg or people don’t know how to cook unusual cuts of meat. Mutton for example is fantastic food but older ewes are given away to kennels or sold off to pet food manufacturers because very few people even consider it.
In addition there are acres and acres of uncultivated land in the UK alone, allotments are a very efficient and environmentally friendly way of producing food, convert half the bloody golf courses and country clubs in to allotments and there’d be more than enough to go around.
So I would conclude that there is no need to go over to vegetarianism, as long as we can ban golf!
