Bijou Drains
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“We cannot allow ‘specialist’ educators. Socialism is the self-education of the whole of society.”
So if we cannot learn from others, who or where can we learn from. You yourself repeatedly report that Marx says this or Marx says that, so you are using Marx in the expert role. You have set up Marx as the expert specialist educator, yet you reject specialist educators.
Whilst Dawkins is technically correct, the difference between the “artificial” selection that humans have undertaken with plants and animals and doing the same thing with humans is the reproductive rate.
In plants reproduction is usually yearly, however the large number of seeds, tubers, etc produced each year means that one plant can reproduce potentially thousands of offspring in one year from which to select the most suitable, and it is quite quickly apparent which are the most suitable to select.
In animals cows usually start reproducing after 2 years and can have up to about 20 calves in their lifetime, but it’s usually about 7-10 produced over a 7-10 year period. In cats, dogs, etc. reproduction and maturity is much quicker. So in effect selection for particular characteristics can take place relatively quickly. However dogs and cattle have taken centuries of selective breeding to get to the point achieved today.
In humans, if we say that reproduction starts at about 16 and reproduction numbers are likely far fewer that cows, for example. Also it takes much longer for the characteristics (if you believe in this type of thing) to become apparent, so it would potentially take much longer, for instance at what age do you decide who the fastest runner is, some sprinters peak in their mid 20s, whilst middle distance and long distance runners peak much later, the same could be said for intelligence (again is you believe in such things)
So again to start to get any really differences emerging, you would probably have to wait at least 25 years and to confirm even a sight modification would take 50 years, with no guarantee. (For example Kenny Dalglish’s son Paul played for Newcastle for a few years. He looked like Kenny, he spoke like Kenny, he ran like Kenny, he even had his tongue hanging out of his mouth when playing, just like Kenny, however unlike Kenny, he was rubbish at football)
Alan – “We have numerous social problems which cross over from the racial to class divisions. Our task is not to deny that race (or religion elsewhere in the world) is not part of the reason for inequality but to show that the fight for socialism is the solution, not a re-arrangement and re-alignment of various oppressions (or disadvantages, if you prefer)”
A view point I wholeheartedly concur with. We need to be pointing out that the actions of the Police in harassing minorities in London, is the same as the actions of the agents of the state at Orgreave and in creating a police state in parts of the UK during the Miner’s Strike and in smashing up communities throughout the North of England. That losing your home because your landlord throws you out is little different from having your home repossessed by the bank and the building society, that being belittled and bullied in the workplace is a factor of your social class and position of power in society. That arriving in the UK as a poor immigrant starved out of your homeland is the same experience your grandparents had as 19th/20th Century Irish immigrants, as a 21st Century Libyan or Afghani immigrants are experiencing now, being denied your cultural and linguistic heritage is the same if you’re a native Welsh speaker or a native Punjabi speaker.
Most importantly we need to be pointing out that it is possible that the divisions created by artifices such as “race”, gender, nationality, sexuality, ability/disability, etc. can be overcome and dealt with through reconciliation and mutual development, however the antagonism that exists between those who own and control and those who have no ownership and control, cannot be reconciled, but require the abolition of class ownership and the abolition of classes themselves. .
We need to be working to create working class unity, not working class divisions.
Alan wrote
“Rather than “the rapidly-heating planet”, would it be more accurate instead to say “the rapidly-melting planet””
The melting point of igneous rocks varies, but silicates solidify at 600 degrees C (although this will depend on pressure, Boyle’s Law and all that). So actually Alan it would be very inaccurate and dare I say a smidgen alarmist to say rapidly melting planet. Although you could argue that as the lower and upper mantle are fluid, although not all liquid so they go through a constant process of melting and solidifying, but the inner core of the earth is thought to be solid, due to the pressure of gravity at the earth’s core
Hi Jon
First of all welcome to the forum, always nice to hear new voices. Funnily enough there is a debate going on in one of our internal forums about how we can begin to look at putting forward our case for socialsim in different ways. I also agree with you that it is very easy for online forums and the likes to descend into “Punch and Judy shows” which end up being counter productive.
With regard to creating a room for those in the Labour Party who are disgruntled and have left or are about to leave, in way, you already have, by starting this thread, hopefully it will develop and fulfill your intention.
Getting back to the Labour Party, I think you are right about the top down model of the Labour Party. It is something that I think has always been there and was one of the reasons I left the Labour Party in 1981 or so. I had been in the LP from being about 16 till I was about 20-21, but realised that despite the outward appearance of being a democratic party (and to be fair back in the 1980s it was probably more democratic that it is now) it was clear that it was nothing of the sort, but more a top down model where those at the bottom complained about those at the top, until they got to the top and behaved like the people they had replaced. (Meet the new Boss, the same as the Old Boss!). I was also aware of the internal jiggery pokery and anti democratic methods of the various semi secret Trotskyist groups, that seemed more interested in destroying each other, than destroying capitalism and who certainly had at best only a shakey commitment to the concept of democracy.
Initially one of the things that attracted me to the SPGB in the first place (and is something we should be more enthusiastic in publicising) is the complete transparency and democratic nature of the Party. I am not sure how aware of our internal processes you are aware of, but we have no secret meeting, no cabals, no leaders and all of our meetings, including our Executive Committee, our conferences, etc. are ALWAYS open to the public, and a member who has joined the party five minutes ago has the same standing in the Party democracy, as one who has been in the party for decades.
There are other obvious reasons why I came to join the Party, not least its definition of Socialism and its opposition to reformism, but I’ll leave it there for the moment, hopefully we can do more of the compare and contrast stuff as the thread develops.
How about posting him a few Socialist Standards? After all, we did write open letters to David Attenborough and Greta Thunberg…
Have we got any pamphlets in Latin?
Hi Robbo
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. The question on the website for applicants, and from memory the same question is used in branches is:
<b>What are your views on religion and its relation to the Party’s case for socialism?</b>
The question asks about religion, which I would say includes the development of gods and god like figures by primitive humans to explain an unexplainable world, the realisation by some (the priest class) that this is an easy way to gain status within the community and dodge getting dirty hands, the development of this into a form of social control by successive ruling elites and the present day use of organised religion as a bulwark to protect the ruling class. In addition to this the idea that we do not need to worry or try to change things is it is all part of god’s plan (divine intervention), is a useful tool for the ruling class to subdue the rest of us. In short religion has no place in the struggle for socialism.
To me, if someone agrees with the above, they’re in, if they don’t they’re out. If they happen to have a few superstitious remnants and think there is something out there that might have started the universe, I couldn’t give a toss, if they in panic say a few Hail Mary’s just before they’re about to be breathalysed, I understand (it might be worth a try and what have you got to lose) and if (like me) you enquire as to the health of any magpie you might see (and his wife) and feel a little uneasy about putting new shoes on a table (which if you think about it would condemn most shoe shops to a gruesome end) what the fuck.
In the 1998-98 football season me and a mate went for a curry before the 1st match of the season, possibly, (possibly) as a result of the two of us going to the same restaurant and ordering exactly the same food, Newcastle were 12 points clear by Christmas, then the restaurant closed. I’m saying nothing after that (bloody Cantona), but does that make me less of a Socialist
We are, all of us, without exception – you, me, the Pope, and Mr and Mrs Smith next door – a mix of rational and irrational. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves
_________
So anyone who thinks they’re totally rational, is by definition irrational?
_______
As an aside, I have always taken the view that an applicant to the party must agree with the Party’s case on religion, not that they must not be religious. There is a subtle difference.
Perhaps, considering the impact of recent resolutions, this is not the best time to bring this issue up? Just a suggestion.
“Extinction Rebellion will blockade the area around parliament on 1 September in protest at the lack of green policies in the government’s plans to rebuild the UK economy after coronavirus…”
This to me shows the true colours of this group, well intentioned reformers. The rebuilding of the UK economy will be ok, as long as there are a few more green policies involved. They effectively support the property owning status quo and attempt to get rid of the symptoms of environmental damage not the cause, all the while doing a great deal to piss their fellow workers off by disrupting their lives. If they went after the environmental depredations of the ruling class I would have a bit of sympathy for them, why not disrupt the “glorious 12th”many of the grouse moors in the UK are manmade semi deserts which were once forest land, surely an action like that would move the debate into who benefits from environmental destruction.
I think the government campaign to get workers back into city centre offices may have something to do with the Tory doner companies who own huge swaiths of city centre offices. Workers working from home don’t need to be accomodated in glass cages in city centres and the arse is dropping out of the office lettings industry.
Apparently London has seen home rental values drop by about 8% since the start of coronavirus as people who can work from home, realise they don’t need to pay a king’s ransome to live in a 1 bed bedsit.
Hello they L Bird, glad to see you’re alive and kicking.
You say
” as Marx said, society divided into two, ‘specialists’ and ‘generalists’, with the ‘specialists’ in political control of social production.”
Simple question, where did he say that?
Seems like Attenborough can’t see a wrong tree without trying to bark up it.
The World Trade Organisation estimates that if total calories from all the food produced were divided among all the people on earth, there would be 2,750 calories per person per day. Since the recommended daily minimum per person is 2,100 calories a day, there are enough calories to feed everyone in the world.
That is what we produce with all of the fetters of the Market System, without this fetters, production could be far, far higher. We have the technology to produce golf course, football pitches and cricket pitches in the Arabian Desert. Without the need to meet the profit requirement of the ruling class, such technology could easily be adapted to allow food production in the same areas of current desert.
