Bijou Drains
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Hi L BirdYou may find Brian's thread about Donald Trump provides you with a little bit of insight into your own life.
I don't think that Trump is the victim of the personality disorder, I think the world is the victim of his personality disorder.
LBird wrote:In pursuit of my Democratic Communist belief that the role of Communists is to explain complex ideas to fellow workers, so that my fellow workers can develop at a far faster rate than I did, because I sum up years of reading into simpler analogies, here is an explanation of the relationship of Marx’s ‘idealism-materialism’ to Engels’ ‘materialism’.Imagine an electrician who finds two grey wires hanging down from a ceiling. Each grey wire is an outer casing for two inner wires, a red one and a green one. The electrician wants to splice the two grey wires, but only requires the feeds of both of the green wires to be taken forward. So, the electrician gets a third piece of grey wire, again containing two inner wires, but which are both green. She connects the green wire, from the left-hand grey wire hanging down, to one of the green wires in her piece of grey wire, and she connects the other green wire, from the right-hand grey wire hanging down, to the second green wire in her wire. Lastly, she bends upwards the red wire of the left-hand feed and covers it with tape, and repeats this with the other red wire from the right-hand grey wire.So, the electrician now has a feed taking forward power from both of the input grey wires, and the input grey wires both have their unused red wires safely taped off, unwanted.Having finished her task, the electrician then moves on to other, more urgent, work.But… she has a mate, a bloke who knows nothing about electrics, but thinks that he does. We all know the sort. He offers to progress her work, and she trusts her mate, and assumes that his estimation of himself can be trusted, and so leaves him unsupervised, to continue her initial task.He, however, on finding the joined wire taking from two sources, decides that this is a bit messy, and thinks it can be simplified. So, he unfastens the join between the green wire linked to the left-hand green wire, untapes the right-hand red wire, and joins the two together. Much simpler and clearer! Now, the right hand grey wire simply continues into the connecting wire, entirely continuing the both inputs from that right-hand grey wire. Much better than having the complexity of wires being joined into a ‘Y’ shape, and he lastly pushes the left-hand grey wire back into the ceiling, well out of harm’s way, and out of sight of any other future meddlers!He assures his companion that he’s completed her original work, and simplified it into the bargain. She’s not too sure just how her work has been ‘simplified’, but she’s now far too busy with the massive new task facing her, and warmly thanks her trusted mate.Years later, some French ‘electricians’ tell her of the extensions they’ve made to her electrical work, but when she examines the powerless results, she’s astounded, and recognises immediate that this is not ‘electrics’ as she knows it, thus declaring that, if this is ‘electrics’, as far as she’s concerned “I’m no ‘electrician!’ ”.assuming that they are both working on a British system from what you've said, neither of them are much an electrician. In the first place they shoulld have used a junction box (you might want to check BS 7671:2008 the latest update to electical regulations).. They are also talking about input, which strictly speaking is incorrect. In AC current (at an atomic level) there is a herd of electrons which all run one way, then stop, turn round and run the other way half a cycle later. Since the electrons are running in both directions their is no polarity, I think the term they should have used is feed. lastly the French domestic system uses black, yellow/green (where they have an earth, which in my experience isn't that often) and Blue for neutral (red for live is becoming a little more common.) therefole how far I would trust the judgement of the electricians to make extentions is a bit limited.Perhaps a little less philosophy and a little more time spent with basic electrical engineering would benefit you
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:…idealistic…The usual reply by 'materialists', when questioned about modern developments in politics, philosophy and physics since the 19th century heyday of materialism, is to revert to the good-versus-evil approach.That is, materialists wear the white hats, and the evil idealists wear the black hats.They got this from Engels, too.What any worker, who knows about 20th century physics, and has read Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Plank, de Broglie, Born, Smolin, Rovelli, etc., makes of this ancient, outdated, 'materialism'……anyway, it's certain that the 'materialists' haven't read what those physicists say about physics.They'd all be called 'idealists'.
What a very strange creature you are, L Bird. In one breath you talk about the need not to partonise the intelligence of worker, yet in another you advise the "less class conscious workers" to vote for Corbyn. You then go on to assert that current scientific thinking is undemocratic and anti the interests of the working class, yet reference the merits of reading bourgeois scientists such as "Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Plank, de Broglie, Born, Smolin, Rovelli, etc." then to further discredit yourself you state that "it's certain that the 'materialists' haven't read what those physicists say about physics" having previously derided other contributors for allegedly holding to the concepts of certainty and truth.It makes me think of a comment by a lecturer I had back in the 80s "Philosophy is just psychology for posers"
LBird wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:gnome wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:There is a possibility in the future that the earth will no longer go around the sun. There's the possibility it will end up being swallowed up by the sun.Actually in around 5 billion years or so that's precisely what will happen and as I know very little about astrophysics I'm quite prepared to accept the calculations of those who do. No vote by the then inhabitants of planet earth, in the unlikely event the human species will have survived that long, will alter that "truth".
You see Gnome, that's where you're wrtong, that will only happen if the workers democratically vote for it!
More contempt for 'workers' and their abilities and potential development.Keep it coming, boys!You'll be changing your party title to the Superior People of Great Britain – tagline: The Party that knows the Truth already, so you dumb workers don't have to bother becoming active!
Actually it's not contempt for workers, it's for the idealistic claptrap you peddle in the guise of pseudo intellectualism. Your idea that we can vote away any unwanted realities, is akin to the Pope and the Catholic Church asking workers to pray to get rid of world poverty.
gnome wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:There is a possibility in the future that the earth will no longer go around the sun. There's the possibility it will end up being swallowed up by the sun.Actually in around 5 billion years or so that's precisely what will happen and as I know very little about astrophysics I'm quite prepared to accept the calculations of those who do. No vote by the then inhabitants of planet earth, in the unlikely event the human species will have survived that long, will alter that "truth".
You see Gnome, that's where you're wrtong, that will only happen if the workers democratically vote for it!
mcolome1 wrote:Tim Kilgallon wrote:Should we send him a Form A to complete?the least we could do is a free three month subscription to the Socialist Standard. Thinking about it, considering the last Pope's views, the Vatican might be a bit sensitive about things that have SS as there initials.When I was very young I met many Jesuits who were more political advanced than him, and some were taken to prison due to their political view, and they can not be considered as Marxists.The Vatican wants to cover up his enrollment with the reactionaries military forces of Argentina, and the assassination of bishop Romero.( considered as a communist by them ) The Vatican wanted Romero to be killed, and in Argentina priests were denounced by other priests during the dictatorshipGeorge Soros has criticized capitalism. Does that make him a Marxist ? He is just another capitalist crookThe proponents of the so called liberation theology can not be called as Marxists either, including Camilo Torres who became a guerrilla father, and the pope does not support them.There is a Salesian priest who participated in workers strikes,and street demostrations, and the Vatican asked the government to deport him to another country Sometimes peoples like to talk shits without checking history or checking the appropriate principles.The new Pope is not a Marxist, he is not a Socialist-communist either , he is just the representative of a reactionary institution called the Catholic Church, he is just the new CEO wearing different mask.Pio XII, and Paul I had more advanced conceptions than him and they were not Marxists either, According to David Yallop in one of his books he indicated that they killed Paul I to be replaced by the anti-communists Paull II
I did have my tongue placed very firmly in my cheek!i
Should we send him a Form A to complete?the least we could do is a free three month subscription to the Socialist Standard. Thinking about it, considering the last Pope's views, the Vatican might be a bit sensitive about things that have SS as there initials.
Yes definitely feeling nauseous, might be your comments, might be the gallon of Newcastle Brown and the kebab I consumed last evening, hard to tell really.welcome back anyway
Aside from the difficulty in labour time accounting presented by taking into account the labour time involved in producing the machine that makes the toothpaste or the hair gel, what about the amount of time involved in training the hair gel maker or the toothpaste maker, or indeed the amount of time teaching/studying involved in becoming a hair gel machine or toothpaste making machine designer and creator. Taking it further, what about the socially useful labour time involved in teaching the person who taught the person who trained the person who made the toothpaste machine, to be a toothpaste making machine maker's teacher. If I then make the decision to go for the hair gel, how long will it take to re-train the toothpaste maker, the toothpaste making machine designer, the teacher of the toothpaste making machine designer, and the teacher of the teacher who taught the toothpaste making machine designer to make the toothpaste making machine, to do something else more socially useful, by which time I may have changed my mind and gone for the toothpaste after all.You can get into the same argument about carbon emissions, the electric car may produce less CO2 but what about the bloody big coal fired power station that produces the electricity, what about the CO2 produced in making the new car, as opposed to the CO2 being currently produced by the very polluting 10 year old diesel?My view is that in a Socialist Society we would make decisions democratically, based on the best information available to those making the decisions at the time and no doubt get some of those decision wrong on a regular basis. Some of those decision will be based on a rough estimate of how much labour time will be involved in creating things and no doubt some things will take more time than estimated and some will take less.
The reported rise in labour party membership is a bit of a curious one. I thought to myself "187,000 new members couldn't all be entryist Trotskyites", then the thought struck me, perhaps with all of the different sectarian Trotskyite groups, all arguing about which tactics they are going to use to infiltrate the "mass workers party" in order to take control, the silly bastards didn't realise that there were 187,000 of them and they all ready were a mass party!
robbo203 wrote:Ralph wrote:robbo203 wrote:Hi Ralph, Socialists do sometimes turn their attention to the practical organisation of a hypothetical future socialist society. In fact the SPGB published a pamphlet on this very subject here http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/socialism-practical-alternative Finally read this, it's really good… It starts to look persuasive, if this was done back in 1994 was there a different attitude or was this just a rebellion! If you can go this far you can go further surely…
I wouldnt disagree with that. What happened to the whole "Productiion for Use " initiative back in 1980s/90s? It seemed to have just fizzled out, Such a pity. It was one of the most positive projects ever embarked upon by the SPGB
The motive force behind it was Pieter Lawrence. Since his sad passing the work of the production for use committee seems to have fallen by the wayside,Ralph may be interested to read another of Pieter's peices:http://theoryandpractice.org.uk/library/how-socialism-can-organise-production-without-money-adam-buick-pieter-lawrence-1984The link also mentions a guy named Adam Buick, wonder what ever happened to him?I think there is a need to continue this practical work within the party, anyone else up to do some of this work?
I've always questioned the “the cook-shops of the future" argument. I can agree that Marx and others at the time could not create specific formats for a Socialist Society, the conditions for World Socialism were not in existence. The difference we face now is that the conditions for World Socialism actually do now exist. I fully understand the need to have democratic shaping of a Socialist Society, however I think that as Socialists, we need to provide the Socialists of the future something to start shaping. Using the cookery analogy, unless we start thinking about what we might have to eat, nobody is going to go as far as putting the kettle on. Providing a feasible plan for socialist production is not making a blueprint for the future, it is giving a suggestion as about how the future might be. Pieter Lawrence's work on Production for use Committee was, in my opinion, a missed opportunity for the Party.
Bloody Vulcans, coming over here,taking our council house, claiming our benefits. There logic just doesn't fit into our society. I don't know why people don't see it. They refuse to integrate their logical, rationilist view of the world into our irrational, parochial world. Pointy eared bastards
