ALB
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Another chemistry lesson:https://www.businessinsider.com.au/chlorine-attack-effects-sarin-chemical-weapons-2018-4
Why? Are chemical weapons more effective than more conventional ones? Rolling chlorine bombs out of a helicopter seems less destructive and so less effective than dropping a proper bomb or firing a missile from a war plane.
Young Master Smeet wrote:and we can also what would happen to civilians had Assad's mob gone in to dig the insurgents out (remember, children starved to death in Mosul)I wouldn't put it that way. It would be equally accurate to say "had the bearded crazies of the Army of Islam not surrendered". In fact, if they hadn't split and some reneged on the surrender agreement neither the bombing of Douma (whether chemical or not) not the three rogue states' bombing of Syria would have taken place.As Tony Cliff might have put it, NEITHER DAMASCUS NOR MECCA.
Carney (or his speech writer) obviously likes the phrase about Marx scribbling as he's used it before, albeit with reference to Capital rather than the Communist Manifesto:http://uk.businessinsider.com/bank-of-england-governor-mark-carney-britain-lost-decade-2016-12Still, interesting that he should frequently be referencing Marx.
The extent to which the bombing states relied on those videos can be seen from this extract from the declassified French "intelligence" report
French government wrote:The French services analysed the testimonies, photos and videos that spontaneously appeared on specialized websites, in the press and on social media in the hours and days following the attack.Testimonies obtained by the French services were also analysed. After examining the videos and images of victims published online, they were able to conclude with a high degree of confidence that the vast majority are recent and not fabricated. The spontaneous circulation of these images across all social networks confirms that they were not video montages or recycled images. Lastly, some of the entities that published this information are generally considered reliable.French experts analysed the symptoms identifiable in the images and videos that were made public. These images and videos were taken either in enclosed areas in a building where around 15 people died, or in local hospitals that received contaminated patients. These symptoms can be described as follows:- Suffocation, asphyxia or breathing difficulties, – Mentions of a strong chlorine odour and presence of green smoke in affected areas, – Hypersalivation and hypersecretions (particularly oral and nasal), – Cyanosis, – Skin burns and corneal burns. No deaths from mechanical injuries were visible. All of these symptoms are characteristic of a chemical weapons attack, particularly choking agents and organophosphorus agents or hydrocyanic acid. Furthermore, the apparent use of bronchodilators by the medical services observed in videos reinforces the hypothesis of intoxication by choking agents. (https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/full-text-french-declassified-intelligence-report-on-syria-gas-attack-1.5995544)Note that they admit that some or part of the videos were "video montages or recycled image" as they say that only the vast majority were not. Note also that some of those "entities" said to be "generally considered to be reliable" are financed by the bombing states themselves.The evidence is that most of the video (which also had a huge effect on public opinion) was filmed recently at an identifiable place. It's the interpretation of what they actually show that is the issue. To say "chemical attack" on the basis of a video seems a bit cavalier, especially when there are other possibilities such as smoke or dust inhalation as a result of a conventional bomb and without interviewing or medically examining people who were actually there.We will be see what the OPCW inspectors come up with, though a media campaign to discredit their findings has already begun.p.s Dave, what is "hydrocyanic acid"? Would hosing down be a way of getting rid of it?
Journalist Robert Fisk has actually been to the clinic where the video was filmed and talked to the head doctor there who offers the following explanation of what was filmed:https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/robert-fisk-reports-head-of-douma-clinic-denies-chemical-weapons-attack/
Dave B wrote:As to not wearing gloves and wearing face masks both are of absolutely no use if it was a chlorine gas attack.So it was either for theatrical effect or just ignorance.That sounds like a good point. It will probably have been both. Lucky we've got somebody here with more than 0 Level Chemistry ! Incidentally, would cholrine cause people to foam at the mouth?
Here's an interview from someone else seen in the staged video:http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/933485041?-12152:1529ia-chemical-attack-speaks-ordeal/
alanjjohnstone wrote:(an article that uses the term 'recuperated', a new word for myself.)That'll be a literal translation from French or Spanish. The English word would be "co-opted" (just realised that's an unintentional pun).
Quote:In a nutshell, cooperatives wage a struggle for survival in a capitalist system. Recuperated workplaces wage a struggle against the bourgeois law, often manifested in state repression, against the capitalist owners and private property.And fail spectacularly, leading to no income to survive under capitalism and to disillusion and bitterness. No wonder workers choose the first option, even if that's what coops have only ever been and only ever can be — a way of trying to survive under capitalism. The only anti-capitalist way-out is political action to dispossess the owning class and end the market system by bringing about the common ownership of the means of production and inaugurating production directly to meet people's needs not for sale or profit.
I agree. That it merely shows those that the videos were staged. Those that staged it may well have believed that it was a gas attack. Nevertheless the fact that two medics, identified as being present on the video, describe what happened must count for something as first hand rather than hearsay evidence.
Bijou Drains wrote:What I find remarkable about the film from Douma is that the medics hosing down the children and treating them with inhalers are wearing masks, but none of them are wearing gloves?According to a trainee medic who was present who the Russian authorities identified on the video and interviwed, those hosing down the people were not medics but people who barged in with others with video cameras at the ready:
Quote:Konashenkov released statements by medics from Douma's hospital, who said a group of people toting video cameras entered the hospital, shouting that its patients were struck with chemical weapons, dousing them with water and causing panic. The medics, however, said none of the patients had any symptoms of chemical poisoning, according to the satements. (http://abc7ny.com/politics/russia-claims-syira-chemical-attack-was-stage…)There is an interview with the trainee medic concerned somewhere on the internet but I couldn't track it down.
France has now declassified the intelligence advice on which they based their claim that the Syrian government had carried out a gas attack in Douma:https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/full-text-french-declassified-intelligence-report-on-syria-gas-attack-1.5995544As can be seen, it is not based on any forensic study but only on hearsay from organisations they say "whose information is generally reliable" and on the Syria government having form in the matter. This would not be enough to bring a prosecution let alone have any chance of getting a conviction in a court of law. No wonder the US and Britain are keeping their "intelligence" classified.This is not to say that the Syrian government might not have done it, only that this remains to be proved.
